Dating as a Demisexual

[00:00:00] Andre-Lee Willis: Foreign.

[00:00:08] Matt Landsiedel: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men’s Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Landsiedel, and today joining me are Ron Fisher, Andre-Lee Willis, and Kasey Cromer. And we are excited to have a panel episode. This is our second panel episode on demisexuality, so we’re taking it one step further and we have a new guest today, Casey. So welcome to the little cohort.

Today’s episode is called Dating as a demisexual. So we’re going to be talking about dating advice for demisexual gay men. All four of us identify as demisexual. We all identify as gay. And we’re here to share our insights and our struggles and our successes when it comes to dating as demisexual. So what we want you to get out of today’s episode is a greater awareness of yourself if you are demisexual, and to know that you’re not alone. And if you are not demisexual, just a greater understanding of demisexuality and that you might come across men in dating that are demisexual and how to best navigate that. So we’re going to be letting you in on some tips and tricks on how to work with and relate to demisexual men and we are going to be sharing some practical dating advice. So stick with us to the end of this episode to hear what we have to say on that. So some of the questions we’re going to be sharing with you guys are going to be how you discovered that you’re demisexual. What has been challenging for you about dating as a demisexual? And where have you found success when it comes to dating as a demisexual? And then just, yeah, what advice do you have for other demisexual men who might be struggling in their dating lives?

So some of you might be just clicked on this and you have no clue what a demisexual is. So I want to break that down a little bit. Demisexuality is a sexual orientation where someone only experiences sexual attraction to a person when they have formed a deep emotional bond with them. This emotional connection is the key factor in triggering sexual attraction for demisexual individuals. Demisexuality exists on a spectrum within the broader asexual spectrum. Some demisexual men may experience sexual attraction only after forming a deep bond, while others may find that the emotional connection still plays a significant role in how they experience attraction. So it’s important to note that demisexuality is not the same as being asexual. Demi actually means half. So it. If you were to translate it, it would be half sexual. But demisexual men can have a full sex drive and full sexual appetite and desire, but they typically experience it only after forming a meaningful emotional connection with someone.

So let’s play a little. A little game here. I have five, five things that I don’t want. I just want you to raise your physical hand if this sounds true to you. Okay?

So you require an emotional connection for sexual attraction.

You get heart ons, meaning the quality of your erection improves when your heart is involved, when you have a connection with somebody.

Okay, for those of you listening, that’s two for two for everybody.

You prefer to take things slower.

Your sexual arousal increases the more you learn about somebody.

Yeah, big time. So four for four. And then sex, dating, and relationships can feel extra challenging to navigate. Yes. So four for four. And that last one there, like dating, relationships, and even sex can feel extra challenging to navigate. That’s the inspiration behind this episode. We really want to unpack some of this and see if we can put our minds together to come up with some strategies on how to make that not feel as challenging. So, and I just wanted to say it’s becoming more prevalent. Ever since we did the first episode, I’ve gotten a ton of emails and messages and people from this channel in the Facebook group, listeners to this podcast saying that, you know, wow, like, I never knew what demisexuality meant, and now, like, I totally identify as this, and I’ve been this way my whole life and never knew why I felt different and these sorts of things. So I think it’s a lot more prevalent in our culture. But I do think that our community is not conducive to celebrating this. Because of hookup culture, gay men tend to have a lot of trauma that maybe they have not processed, and that can lead to a lack of emotional maturity or a lack of emotional availability, capacity for intimacy. So the things that we desire as demisexuals can be very hard to come by in the gay community.

So we want to, you know, obviously bring forth. And this brotherhood is all about bringing forth healing, so we can have greater capacity for these things. And I think demisexual men will thrive more in a community that’s more conscious and has done a lot of healing work. So hence the reason why we’re doing what we’re doing. So.

All right, well, now I want to give these lovely other three men here an opportunity to introduce themselves. And if you want to just share your. Your name, where you’re from and. Yeah. How you discovered that you’re demisexual. And why don’t we start with you, Ron?

Okay.

[00:04:58] Ron Fisher: It’s interesting because when you were saying all that, having been married for 43 years and in a straight relationship, I mean, that term demisexual, never. Who said demisexual? Ever. Right. And so I guess being in a married relationship like that is. That’s what forms that. So coming out, when I did and I learned what that word was, I was like, that’s me. Absolutely. But that’s always been me. I’ve never been any different.

And so it.

Then you’re out there and it’s meeting all you guys and hearing what you have to say, but it’s also, you know, as you go through the community and meet people and. Yeah, I think that’s enough said at this point.

[00:05:43] Matt Landsiedel: So how old were you when you discovered that you were demisexual? Like, how long into your journey? Maybe even, like.

[00:05:49] Ron Fisher: I honestly never thought of that until I joined this community, I didn’t learn about that word. I didn’t know what that was. And that was pretty close to me coming out. I might have been about 64, so. And then I was like, oh, well, this is why, because I. I got referred to in the community as the U haul lesbian.

[00:06:08] Matt Landsiedel: And you share a unique experience, I think, compared to the other three of us. I’m actually not sure Casey’s full story, but that you were married to a woman prior to coming out. Right. And I think being years.

Exactly. Yeah. So being demisexual in a heterosexual marriage is probably going to bring a completely different experience than maybe the three of us. So I am looking forward to hearing more about how that did impact you. Yeah. Maybe even made it easier for you to celebrate that, because women tend to be more emotionally available and have greater capacity for intimacy.

[00:06:41] Ron Fisher: The other thing there is, there’s a lot of life experience. By the time you get to that stage of life, you’ve been through a lot. I dealt with a lot of this stuff along the way. So by the time I came out, I was much more confident, secure in who I was. And I think that makes a big difference at navigating that.

[00:07:00] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, that plays a huge role for sure. Okay, thanks, Ron. Appreciate that. Kasey, what about yourself?

[00:07:07] Kasey Cromer: Hello. Yes, my name is KaseyCromer and I live in Atlanta, and I’m from Rivera Beach, Florida.

So similar to Ron language, there was no language for how I was feeling. I remember as far back as being four and knowing I was attracted to men.

However, the attraction, even from four to teenager to young adult in my 20s, always was centered around how I felt and how they made me feel.

That was complex for me because I thought something was wrong with me.

I thought that maybe asexuality. I wouldn’t describe myself as asexual, but there are times where I could just be really celibate for a while because it’s just much more comfortable. And I found being in relationship with men, especially in casual dating to serious relationships, was very difficult because the speed of physical connection, at least the conversations I was a part of, it was just very fast. It was too fast for me. And one of the things I found for me to really feel safe in my body to be with other bod bodies is really to have a strong level of trust.

And I just can’t just do a handshake and just go all into it and some of that. It wasn’t really until maybe language, right? Like, what is this experience? Because only thing really tools language I had at the time was gay, straight, bi and asexual or something’s wrong. So I went to something’s wrong.

I was like afraid actually. I was like, maybe I’m broken. And it wasn’t until I started the expansiveness of the our community, the LGBT and start to look into things, I realized that it probably is the area that I’m in is demisexuality because it makes sense and interesting enough. Some of the things that really draws me towards potential partners is this strong connection to spiritual values. And I found like falling for monks.

I want this period of falling for like these deeply spiritual people who are celibate. So actually I mirrored that as I try to figure out where I was in a dating pool where I went be a monk for a number of years. So it’s interesting how the journey takes you to where you are today.

So yeah, that’s a little bit about me.

[00:09:26] Matt Landsiedel: Well, maybe is everybody here, Is everybody sexually active? Like are you or are you practicing celibacy at this time? I’m just curious.

[00:09:33] Kasey Cromer: No, I am not. I took an inhale and exhale. So no, I’ve been. I was in a three year relationship.

[00:09:40] Matt Landsiedel: Okay.

[00:09:40] Kasey Cromer: That ended a couple years ago and I started dating again about a year ago. So as a part of me dating different men, I have been sexually active. It’s a part of that journey. Some of the things just to get comfortable because I really want some of my challenges, I think for myself is how do I honor myself and how do I. How do I not cause harm but not be kind of stuck into this? I want to be asexual in that experience because my body does want to experience this connection. I started doing different things to really start to go into what my needs are and really start to really start to communicating more. So to answer your question, yes, I’ve been sexually active, and I’m gonna continue to do that. Even I feel very awkward about it sometimes.

[00:10:24] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah. It can feel so confusing and so complicating. And I’ll share a bit about my story after Andre goes. But it’s. I like how you said, like, you did some research in the LGBT community, and I hear sometimes people being like, why do we have, like, so many letters? And why do we have so many different sexualities and so many flags and these sorts of things? And I just think this is a perfect reason why. Because it took you from something’s wrong with me to being able to identify, like, oh, there isn’t something wrong with me. I’m actually this. Right. And it gave you a label to be able to identify with and then maybe even be able to meet community or build community around it. Connect to your needs, which is so, so crucial as a demisexual person. Like, we have to understand our needs and our boundaries before we can go into these contexts where we’re going to be able to get our needs met. Right?

[00:11:08] Kasey Cromer: Definitely.

[00:11:09] Matt Landsiedel: And before we jump into Andre, Ron, are you sexually active? Are you abstinent? Where are you at?

Okay, okay. Not to be too personal, but it just gives us, like, the kind of the context on where everybody’s at. Right. Like, if you’ve been celibate for the last 10 years, it’s like, okay, that’s gonna be a completely different perspective. So, all right. And what about for yourself, Andre?

[00:11:29] Andre-Lee Willis: So, as you all know, my name is Andre. I think my story is quite interesting. How I discovered that I was demisexual is I was hanging out with my friend Matt, and my friend Matt and I were just Gavin away, Gavin away, and sharing our experiences.

And he turned to me and he said, you know, Andre, I think you’re demisexual. I said, what’s that?

And then I started to dive in and I started to research, and then I found a community of gay men who also identified as demisexual. And we would meet on Zoom.

Because when I. When I really discovered it was during the quarantine.

So me and this group of men, we would meet on Zoom, and when we would talk, not only did I feel right at home But I finally felt like I was around people that were in conversation and felt the way I did.

So inside of that community, I was no longer an outlier. I was like, oh, okay, okay, this feels right.

So that’s how I discovered it through someone else who was demisexual.

[00:12:43] Matt Landsiedel: I’ve made it. My kind of, like, informal mission in life is to, like, introduce this to people, because I think more people are this than they realize. And their sexual conditioning, especially gay male sexual conditioning, it pulls us away from our authenticity sometimes. And I think it’s. It’s important to come back to this. So.

And he’s speaking that we started a men’s group, and we ran it for, oh, geez, two years almost.

And Ron was part of it and Andre and a whole bunch of other guys. And it was so nice to come together and feel connected and seen in this, you know, unique quality of ours that was greatly misunderstood. And. And yeah. So for those of you who also learn more, four years ago, we did our first podcast on this topic, so you can check that one out as well. It’s quite back in the.

The history books in the library, but it’s there, so. All right. Yeah. So for myself, I.

Oh, geez. It’s been an evolution. There’s not really one thing that kind of pinpoints it, but I would say my spiritual evolution has been a big, big factor in this. So I. In my 20s, I was extremely hypersexual, like, sexually compulsive, even. And I had a spiritual awakening when I was around probably 30, and it was my second one, actually. I’ve had a bunch of little micro awakenings, and this one was probably one of the bigger ones. And my body just shut down. And I didn’t have a sex drive. I didn’t feel anything sexual. I barely even masturbated for like a year.

And my body was going through, like. I think what it was happening, looking back is it was. I was coming out of dissociation, out of a free state that my body had been in for a long time. And I was putting myself in sexual situations that were just. My body didn’t want them. But my mind and my conditioning, my programming taught me that I have to want these things. This is what all the other gay men want. So I feel like I had to be into hookups and. And these sorts of things. And so there was a time when I was in Thailand and I had a hookup with this guy, and I wasn’t able to perform. And I left that ex. That experience feeling completely down. On myself, went into a, a week long depression, could barely get out of bed. And that’s when my body just completely like shut down on me. And, and, and that was the start for me. So I probably started when I was about 30 and it’s been an ongoing thing with it. I at first thought like, the same with Casey. I thought there was something wrong with me. I was like, why can’t I get erections? Why don’t I have a libido? Like something’s wrong with my body. And I went on this pursuit of trying to like solve myself or fix myself.

And then I got introduced to this term demisexual probably about six years ago. So this was three years after this event. So I spent three years in limbo not knowing what was going on with my body and wondering why. I thought maybe I was asexual or that I had had the spiritual awakening and that my. I’m just no longer sexual. I, I didn’t know. I was very scared and I felt a lot of shame around what I was experiencing.

So yeah, you know, meeting with, with you guys in the community and just, you know, starting to do a ton of research on what this means, I started to, I got into a relationship at one point and I had like strong feelings for this person and my erections were fine, my libido was fine. Like, and I was like, okay, this is really interesting. So I started making the correlation. I was like, this is my body’s way of telling me that it doesn’t want the things that I have been conditioned to, to think that I wanted and that it was my body and my sexuality was actually evolving. I was maturing sexually into becoming a demisexual. And so yeah, that’s a little bit of my story and kind of how, how I met that.

I’ll talk a bit more about some of the challenges and strengths with that after, but. Okay, let’s hop into the second question. So I’m curious for you, Ron, what has been some of the challenges that you faced dating as a demisexual?

[00:16:34] Ron Fisher: Well, I think the biggest challenge that I faced is because I waited so long to come out. I just was like this racehorse out there. I never, I mean, apps were all new to me. I got on the apps. I can remember being called Fresh meat. The heck was that? Like all things that I’d never experienced before this community that I’d never experienced before.

I lived in the straight work. But the other part was I really wanted to have sex. Right? Like, I waited a long time and I knew the first time I ended up with a man, I went, oh, my God, here. I always thought it was just sex.

I didn’t realize what it could be, what it could mean to me, right? And then I wanted more.

But then I find sex wasn’t enough.

I needed a connection to really feel like I would. And balancing that, like, that strong want, that strong need to engage to have that sex, but then not feel anything, like it was just empty and navigating that part. So I know now that I’m a sexual man, I need a strong sexual connection with someone as well as a strong emotional connection with someone. I need to have both. I need to find that person. Like, they really turned me on. I really am attracted by them. And anyways, yeah, it’s been a real. Was hard for me to get my head around.

Being involved in this community, I think grounded me because I was part of that zoom call I was part of. So right from the very beginning, pretty well I knew I was demisexual. So I kind of understood what that meant.

I knew that I was going out into this community that didn’t always think the way I did. And it’s funny, Casey, you mentioned that spiritual side. Like, I went out with a rabbi, a Baptist minister, it seems to me, because I automatically would think, wow, they must be a good person. Like, they must be, right. I would be attracted to that energy. And then, yeah, not always the case, but I really was always confident with who I was.

And I looked at going out into the world and having those experiences as just that, about learning about me. I never took it personally. I mean, I. I might have at first, like, I’ve been ghosted, not ghosted anyhow, slip about three times, haunting that. What that person was offering me, but knowing inside that it really wasn’t there.

But venturing down that path, still hoping that it was. But when I hit. When they started to ask for money or something like that, I knew, yeah, block you. Like, I never took it. You understand what I mean? But I would read stories or hear things on in the group. I didn’t identify with that part because I was at a place where I felt pretty good about myself. And I realized that the experiences I was having were mine and I was learning about me.

And even if it didn’t sit well with me at the time, if I put myself in a situation that I went, oh, what the hell?

I just go through it, put it as a learning experience, and not do it again. Like, I think that’s. That’s been my most difficult part right now, so being a demisexual, that was my challenge when I first came out. And it still is because it’s me.

[00:20:05] Matt Landsiedel: I know, right?

[00:20:07] Ron Fisher: And the other thing for me is just because, you know, I’m attracted to people, but then I am of this age, so I have to navigate that. Like I’ve been in. In situations where I. I’ve felt unseen. Right. In a group because they all love me, they all think Ron’s a great guy, Rock Ronnie. But it’s not like in the same place that they are. Like they’re. They’re all vying for position and meeting this one and finding that one and whatever there Ron sits. He’s a good friend. Oh, he love. I love to talk to him. He’s got great advice.

But I sometimes feel like, well, I’d like to be in the equation.

But then I’m. I’m 72, right. And so like, I mean, it was interesting. I went out for breakfast yesterday with my ex roommate. He’s 32 years old and he was one. He calls me his fairy godmother. And so he took me out for Mother’s Day brunch to meet his new boat. His the only beau I’ve ever met at the time that I’ve known him, which is like three years. I really felt honored to be that way. But his bow is a little bit older. But both of them have been out for way longer than I have.

And so we had this discussion and it was kind of interesting. I would definitely say that my friend is. Is if he allows himself to partner with or be with someone demisexual, he can hook up. But yeah, it’s interesting. I just find the community in person. I’m always learning about myself through them.

[00:21:37] Matt Landsiedel: Is the challenge that you’re describing, is it related to age or is it related to being demisexual? Because I know you said you’re 72.

[00:21:43] Andre-Lee Willis: There’s a little bit of both, right?

[00:21:44] Ron Fisher: It’s a little bit like, yeah, I can’t. You know, when you invited me to this call, I was like, you know, part of. I’m in two. I’m experiencing two things. But you see, the demisexual part, I felt really comfortable about that.

[00:21:58] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:21:59] Ron Fisher: Like the place that I feel really comfortable about that.

[00:22:02] Matt Landsiedel: What happens if you dishonor that part of yourself? The part of yourself requires connection.

[00:22:08] Kasey Cromer: Yes.

[00:22:09] Ron Fisher: I’ve learned that where I’ve talked to somebody, I end up with somebody and they’re spending the weekend.

That’s a hard boundary for me to make. I did it. I allowed myself to be physically active with that person, but not.

Well, like, I was just. It was horrible. And I thought I’d never do that again. So now I. I know that about myself. That could traumatize a lot of people. Didn’t traumatize me. I looked at it as a learning experience. It wasn’t pleasant and I didn’t speak my mind about it, but it was. Yeah, it wasn’t possible.

[00:22:43] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. Being authentic and speaking truth, that’s what makes a dummy successful, a demisexual successful versus one that’s not. I think we have to really be.

[00:22:54] Ron Fisher: Onerous of knowing how far you’re willing to, you know, like, being a people pleaser, wanting people to like you. Then you put yourself in that situation.

So you have to have a certain amount of ownership and then to just go. I found that very difficult, but I.

[00:23:11] Matt Landsiedel: Sure didn’t like it.

[00:23:13] Ron Fisher: Huge learning lesson for me.

[00:23:16] Matt Landsiedel: Thanks for sharing that. It’s. I’m sure the. The listener viewer is going to really resonate with that, Especially if somebody’s like, is a people pleaser and they’re struggling with speaking up. What about yourself, Casey? Some challenges that you’ve faced.

[00:23:29] Kasey Cromer: Some challenges for me has been really learning how to date. So my sexual experiences started in my teenage years and with a friend that I trusted. So I thought everything was working really well. Like, I was just like a normal, what you call it, physically focused gay man. But we had a strong foundation of friendship for years.

So I took that into my 20s. There’s some things with my family not accepting me that really created some unhealthy behaviors where I did go through a period of a lot of casual sex. And I thought it was normal because I drank a lot. So somehow I thought the alcohol and the fact I didn’t. Somehow I thought I was just still physically focused. I thought everything was working. But really alcohol influence experiences wasn’t real. It wasn’t until my 30s. 30 is such a great time where it slows you down from all the alcohol.

Your body is changing, and you’re like, I need to just drink more. Let’s just try to just enjoy casual sex. I really did. I’m like, I could do this casual sex thing. I’m like everyone else, right?

And I remember having multiple experiences where I lose interest totally somewhere in the middle or sometimes at the beginning where it’s just not interesting.

And I made myself wrong. That’s why I started really feeling like something might be off. Maybe I’m having some health issue. And I was just remembering myself being physically there. And just kind of doing these different moves but not really feeling it. And at some point just completely spacing out. And the people physically are my types. And I was like, what is missing? What is wrong? So of course, when that happened for me, I said, of course one of my go tos, I’m just going to go celibate.

So I went celibate. I went celibate for like five or six years. I was like, this is. I am coasting. Maybe celibacy and commitment to God or goddess, you know, I was really into. That’s why I started, like I was talking about earlier in my share, maybe my path is to be someone who is completely celibate and focused to service in.

So I went down that path. And it wasn’t until I moved to Atlanta from Austin and I met this amazing monk who was celibate for 25 years. And I remember saying to her, okay, I am ready. I am ready to be initiated into this lineage monastic. And she laughed. And she’s like, first off, no one just chooses celibacy. It’s really a calling. And she looked at me very deeply with care in her eyes. And she said, you should date more.

And I was like, so resistant. I’m like, don’t you understand how difficult it is? And that really what I was pushing up against was I was unclear on what was happening to me. It was just easier to bypass life just being celibate. And she’s like, yeah, I know it’s difficult because men just want to have sex. She used the expletive, which I won’t say for the purpose of this. I’m like, you can’t say that because you’re a holy person. And she started laughing. She’s like, go ahead and just date more and then come back if you’re still feeling serious about in a couple years. So that’s when I met my partner. So I didn’t actually date. I met my partner within.

[00:26:38] Ron Fisher: Within.

[00:26:39] Kasey Cromer: I think I took the lesbian track within three weeks. We ended up like, we’re exclusive. And then the couple of months we’re living together and then three years pass.

So I’ll go from casual sex, celibacy, living with someone, and then in my 40s, starting a year ago, I’m like, let’s start dating.

So that is where I’m learning so much about myself right now. Because one of the things I find challenging, that I don’t know if anyone else talked about. Some people think I’m attractive. I fit this attractive mold because of my height and all this stuff. And immediately when men talk about what I physically look like, I get very uncomfortable and there’s distrust right away because I don’t relate to myself that way. So it’s kind of strange. What I find attractive in myself has very little to do about what I look, look like and what I’m attractive and what I’m attracted to in others is very different than the typical, oh, they work out and all of that stuff. So I started bumping into in these dating apps because of the dating apps. Let’s take the right picture, let’s enter all the information. Yeah, you’re really good looking, blah, blah, blah. I was like, what the hell? What are we talking about? So one of the things I find too just trying to be in the world. One of my challenges is that there is this challenge where people will see me and I can be very outgoing and comfortable and I’m a mixture of introvert, extrovert, very people curious. And then there’s this connection that happens that they immediately at times make physical and that totally freaks me out because I get very awkward. Like I’ve tried to do like the sexy flirt thing and it’s just not real. I could do that with someone I trust I’m feeling connected to. Otherwise I’m just trying to mirror something I’ve seen or imitate something I’ve seen on tv.

So so much of how I’m in my. I’ve had a series of short term dating. Fortunately, I’ve been very grateful in that I know it’s not everyone’s experience. I have like two, three months over the past year with some quality people.

I think some more emotionally connected than others. But one of the biggest consistent challenges that I’ve had is not feeling my emotional availability matching their emotional availability. It’s been this kind of withholding and there’s a level of and maybe it’s because how the nature of men, they need to really figure out if they’re going to be emotionally available. Let’s get to the sex. And then that just makes me extremely awkward. And then I try and there’s been a couple of scenarios where I’ve tried to be in that space and it’s just uncomfortable. And then it makes me just want to go into my little turtle shell and be like, you know what? I don’t know, let me. And I had to really actively push today and fortunately I have support. I have an amazing coach that really helps me. I have a therapist and it takes a team to keep me in the realm of dating because Let me tell you, celibacy. I could close this whole door for like 40, 50 years and be done and move right on and, like, let me bypass all that complexity. But it’s been great. I’ve been able to really start to come into that space and just if someone directs towards my physical looks, really redirect the conversations and, you know. But anyhow, yeah, that’s some of my challenges.

[00:29:48] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah. I’m hearing like, speaking your truth when it’s there. And then pacing, like, those are two very common things I hear with demisexual men is like, it’s hard to speak their truth because sometimes it’s like maybe they don’t even know what their truth is. They might be confused or they might feel judged. But it also sounds like pacing, like, you tend to have greater capacity to get to emotional availability and to have this. This capacity for intimacy and it’s not being matched. And that sounds like a challenge.

[00:30:17] Ron Fisher: Yes.

[00:30:18] Kasey Cromer: Yeah, talk about it. Send it out to the universe. We need this to happen. But yeah, that is true.

[00:30:25] Matt Landsiedel: I really relate to what you said because about.

What was it? What did you say? Said something about you could be celibate forever and you need like a team of people to, like, push you out there. And I was talking to actually my ex last night, who’s also, I think, demisexual. And I said, because I want to get a dog at some point. And I’m like, I’m scared that if I get a dog, I’m not going to need a man. I’m going to just not want to date at all. Because I have zero libido right now. I’m just like, in my own lane. I’m very content. Right? And it’s not until I meet somebody and get going with them that my libido turns on. So I can easily just stay in the lane of Matt. And if I got a pet that I could cuddle with, I would probably never even need to date a man ever again. I don’t want that because I do want to have sex. And I love feeling alive and sexual and sexy and all those things, but. And sometimes it’s actually nice to not have a raging libido because I hear from guys that I work with on the other end of the spectrum, which I would say hypersexuality, but the other end of the spectrum that they’re exhausted by their sex drive. They’re exhausted by the compulsive thinking about sex all the time and porn watching and these sorts of things. So I think there’s Both ends of the spectrum here that the happy middle would be where I’d like to land.

[00:31:36] Kasey Cromer: Yeah, no, I totally agree. And yeah, it’s so interesting because it is. I can get a lot of things done. I have a high level productivity. And there is that dance of not getting so because there’s so much richness I’m learning and what it means to relate to men. How do I care for myself in ways that I realize. So there’s so much I’m getting out of having sex with men and relating to men.

[00:32:01] Matt Landsiedel: Thanks for sharing, Casey. What about you, Andre?

[00:32:05] Andre-Lee Willis: So I would say two challenges. One not a challenge anymore, but I think it’s relevant. So the first challenge was not knowing, not having the language, because I feel like when you have an understanding of who you are, then you know how to manage others, then you know what to do.

So in not knowing, I really didn’t know what to do.

And I do want to be responsible, as I always could have chosen to align myself with who I am. But in not having the language and being around a majority of people who were the opposite, when you make yourself wrong, I think you tend to make decisions that go against who you are.

So I would hang out with a group of friends and we’d talk and they’d say, what about you, Andre? And who are you dating? What are you into? And then they would mean this out of love. They would call me a prude. They’d say, you need to get some, you know, and it was generally out of love and concern. And I could hear that, right? And because they love me and I have that concern, I’d start considering it. I’d be like, well, maybe I do need to go out and do something. Maybe I need to expand myself. But it really wasn’t an expansion of who I am am.

More so I was going against who I am because I didn’t really understand why I was the way I was and most people were not.

Once I discovered demisexuality and started to understand it, I started handling men differently. I started handling life differently. And I had a place in which to stand. So there was no more making Andre wrong. I knew the source of why I wasn’t doing the things that others were doing and I chose to be fine with it. Right. I think sometimes, you know, we get invitations to parties and the thing is to go to the party.

But I think sometimes when you accept your own uniqueness, you start to realize you’re not meant to go to every party.

And then you realize in order to have the full expression of who you are. It’s best if you throw the party and then invite people to come.

So that’s how I approach dating. I’m throwing a party and I’m inviting people to come.

And I’m not really in the mindset of what do I need to do to make this happen.

I’m in the mindset of I’m the prize. So let’s see if they’ll do what needs to be done to make this happen. And whoever does wins. They won’t be disappointed because once you unlock that sexual door, the better question is now, can you handle all of what Andre is going to give you?

You know, and that’s one thing I do want to just throw in there because everything you guys are saying I experience.

But one thing I want to throw in there is there is long periods of celibacy for me and I’m a very sexual person.

So it’s not as though there’s not sexual interest. It’s not as though I am not in heat and it’s not as though I’m not, you know, at times partaking in self love sometimes or by not.

And I’m ready to tear the four walls down.

It’s just. It’s not going to happen with another person without that one thing. And that’s connection.

That’s it. Yeah, I am sexually active. But I think the better question is I think I didn’t really understand what celibacy or abstinence was because I grew up in a very religious environment.

So I chose to think that I was because I think it just came closest to aligning with who I already am. Right. So I.

I don’t think I’ve ever really been celibate. I think I’ve just been. I think celibacy is part of demisexuality. Right.

[00:36:21] Matt Landsiedel: Inactivity.

[00:36:22] Andre-Lee Willis: Yeah. It’s just. I’m shutting it down. Everybody, like, do your best work. Make a connection. Because if not the shop is closed. And the second thing now the second challenge.

And I think this is very relatable because I think people. I know people naturally tend to do this. But there’s a way I feel that it becomes important piece in demisexuality, which is I create narratives in my head in order to create connection.

So I’ll see someone that I’m physically attracted to and in order to really draw myself in, I’ll start making up a story about who they are.

I could see a TikTok on somebody who’s very attractive and I’ll scroll through Their pictures, and maybe they tell a joke, and I’m, like, feeling drawn in because I’m now imagining that we’re together laughing.

So I think the second challenge that I’m always cognizant of is I then become very committed to the narrative that I created in my head.

And it is not necessarily what’s going on or who the person is, is.

But if the connection is not there, I’m going to create it so that I could have the experience.

So even in, like, masturbation, there are certain stars that I watch or that I feel connected to because I’ve created that in my head.

There are certain things that I look for because I created my head. There it is. That’s connection. So I might see two people having sex, and let’s say they laugh and talk.

I see connection, and I’m like, oh, let me watch this.

Like, I’m all in. Right.

So I think the second challenge, and. And, you know, it’s very normal for people to fantasize. Even you’re having sex with somebody and you’re fantasizing about someone else. Right. I just think when you’re demisexual, in order to make things happen, in order to rev the engine, I think I kind of lean into that.

So sometimes I have to really, you know, just check in. Right. Make sure that I am in touch with what’s really going on.

But that said, I’m complete.

[00:38:35] Matt Landsiedel: I would never have thought, because I do the same thing. And I saw Ron’s fingers twinkling too. I call it like, romanticizing, creating a narrative and fantasizing about that narrative. And then it’s not actually that there’s dissonance between what the. The situationship or whatever, what it actually is and what we’ve created it to be.

And that’s led to a ton of disappointment in my life. So I can see greatly how that would be a challenge. Thanks, Andre. Yeah, you always bring so much, like, wisdom, and, like, I felt a lot of. In your first answer, there was a lot of, like, empowerment. I felt like that you’re. You’re truly empowered as a demisexual. I can feel that in your energy. So I’m glad that you’re. You’re on this panel. Okay. Challenges. Oh, God, you guys brought up so many things.

I would say the first one for me would be performance anxiety or just even sexual anxiety in general, because there’s been so many situations over the course of my life when I was dishonoring my demisexuality that I went against my nature and I would put myself in hookup situations and my body wasn’t functioning and then I would feel shame and then it creates a negative feedback loop. So there’s a part of me that has a lot of anxiety when it comes to sex because I haven’t really had a lot of the type of sex that I need in order to feel efficacy or to feel confident sexually. Because, you know, I think to become confident in something, we have to practice it and get good at it. And I’ve yet to be able to find people that I can have the type of sex that I want to have with. So there’s almost like feast or famine, like when I’m not in a relationship, I feel asexual. I truly feel asexual. I don’t have a libido, I barely masturbate. But when I’m in a relationship and I have connection, I’m like hypersexual. I want to have sex all the time, you know, so it’s. That’s a very challenging thing for me because it would be nice to have a bit more balance or consistency. I think that would be. Be huge. But then I find, and this brings it into the other challenge I find when I, when I do seek the thing I need, which is intimacy, I don’t necessarily need a relationship. And to be honest, I don’t even want a relationship right now. I don’t want a long term committed relationship. I want to have intimacy. That’s what I’m looking for. And I find that as soon as I say that to gay men, they equate that, that I want a relationship and I don’t. Right. So how can I have intimacy with it being fulfilling for me? But it’s not just a no strings attached, I don’t know this person, barely know their name or what they do like that. That doesn’t work for me. So there’s not that space between.

Right. It’s so hard to find that space between. It’s either hookup or relationship I find. And there’s friends with benefits and you know, I’m trying to coin the term friends with int.

And I’ve done some podcasts about that and things because I find that’s where I thrive. I thrive in a friends with intimacy situation where especially when I’m not wanting a relationship, when I’m wanting a relationship, I just want. I want intimacy, I want love. But because I’m not wanting that right now in my life, I’m wanting intimacy, buddies, whatever you want to call it. So the thing that I, that I need in order to thrive and to gain experience and confidence. It’s not readily accessible to me. That’s my biggest challenge. If I were to sum it up into a little sentence.

All right, thanks for all your input on question two. So let’s move into question three. So what have you found or where have you found success when it comes to dating as a demisexual? So now kind of flipping the script, like, where. Where have you found that you’ve been able to be successful or made some progress in this area? Mr. Ronnie, it’s really interesting with what.

[00:42:06] Ron Fisher: You’Ve just talked about, because that’s exactly how I feel. That’s where I’m at. When you ask, where have I found success? I. I have friends that I feel intimate with that we have. We’re not in a relationship, but we care a lot about each other. And because, as I said, I like, I enjoy that part of my life. I want to be sexual and Right.

And so, yeah, that’s.

Yeah, that’s where I’m at. That’s where I found success, is that I meet people. I’ve met people along the way who I still see, but I’m still open to meeting someone more. And maybe I won’t. This will be where I stay for the rest of my life. And that’s okay. I’m really happy with that. I have some wonderful relationships with people. And, you know, as a person ages, they’re not always the same either. Right. So that whole thing changes, and you have to be open to that. But to really care about somebody and to really be there for each other is kind of nice. And I, you know, when I was at that all or nothing stage, if someone couldn’t give me all that, I didn’t write where I’ve realized that’s not. No. Because anyways, that’s just not how. Where I found my place. I’m so glad I came in on this soon because it’s helped me see where I’m at, and it’s helped. And listening to how you’re up, each of you were talking has really put some things in place in my head.

[00:43:39] Matt Landsiedel: What are you taking away? Like, what’s.

[00:43:41] Ron Fisher: Well, no, but like, for instance, when you were expressing how you were wanting intimacy, but you were really. So I’m at a place in my life. Like, if you meet somebody, you’re right. If you meet somebody and you come on too strong, which is what I do, I want to know all about them. And I ask all these questions like this, right? Like, it’s just not like. No. And so what you mentioned is exactly where I’m at. And that’s where I’m at, is I’m looking. I’m really valuing those intimate friendships that I have. And I wouldn’t call it friends with benefits. It’s deeper than that.

[00:44:16] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:44:17] Ron Fisher: It’s caring for each other, but we’re not in a place in our life where we want to have someone to live with someone else or to whatever we’re navigating with each other, that kind of stuff. But I’m still open to meeting someone that I would devote myself to and they would. You know what I mean?

[00:44:37] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:44:38] Andre-Lee Willis: Just.

[00:44:38] Ron Fisher: That’s what this zoom call has done for me. It is. I identify that. And to feel in a really good place, like we create what we need in our old life, it doesn’t have to have a label or be a certain way. It can be the way it works for us.

[00:44:55] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:44:56] Ron Fisher: Right. And I’ve had a little bit of trouble navigating that, because every stage of your life is different and where you’re at and what works and what doesn’t work. So a lot of what you’re talking to. Talking about necessarily quite relate to me because I’m 30 years older than you guys.

But that’s part of it. I mean, we can’t. That’s the elephant in the room, so to speak. And that’s always been my trouble because most of the people I attract are a lot younger than me. Right. It just.

But that’s okay, too. If I have a connection and I feel comfortable with that person.

And as I always say, for me, it’s in the kiss.

Oh, yeah. If that kiss is a kiss, I’m just done.

[00:45:48] Kasey Cromer: Yeah.

[00:45:50] Matt Landsiedel: Kiss is a barometer. Like, that’s that. Like this. These right here control my. My penis. Oh, yeah.

[00:45:57] Ron Fisher: Absolutely. For me, too. And you see, some guys, that’s not a big thing. For them, kissing is like, well, forget it.

[00:46:04] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:46:06] Ron Fisher: So I think I kind of answered that question.

[00:46:09] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. Yeah, you did. And thank you for sharing, like, where you’re at and what this conversation is bringing up for you and that your. Your perspective is different, but you’re also seeing ways that you can relate to our experiences as well.

[00:46:21] Ron Fisher: Because I am demisexual. And so I’m showing you what it looks like now.

[00:46:27] Matt Landsiedel: Later.

[00:46:28] Ron Fisher: Right?

[00:46:29] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Ron.

Casey, what about you?

[00:46:34] Kasey Cromer: So where I’ve found success is, I think, starting off with really taking the learnings from past experiences. Right. So being in relationship with someone for three years and not really having that Time to really date, to really understand who I want to be and how I want to show up and who I really need to really work well with in partnership.

I really got clear on the importance of dating because I really didn’t get it. I think sometimes I think some of my need to jump into something that is permanent is to not do the work of getting to know different types of people.

So I think the willingness to date, the willingness to experience initially without holding too tightly one specific human is really important. And also the respect that, hey, not everyone’s going to wait due my timing of emotional connection. And sometimes it will be where it won’t be aligned. Because for them to feel secure is to have sex according to some of the experiences I’m having here. And I’m just being okay with this. Just not aligned and just still honoring who I am and not making them wrong for who they are. So I think that’s really important for me.

Also getting clear as I go through the different types of experiences of dating would be just remember and take it to the next experience of dates. Okay? Who am I really wanting to be with? Who do I see myself really connecting with? Because one of the big truths for me is I’m actually looking for partnership. I think it’s important for me to say that because for so long I thought it was not available to me. And even how I showed my previous relationship, it wasn’t as if I was someone in a partnership. I was still acting very much like it was, you know, very siloed and single in certain ways. It’s very interesting, like, I can do everything myself. So I really am looking for that deep commitment that I feel like of how I was raised and some of the religious stuff that I could not have. So I think my deepest part of my heart is I want to be in love. I want to have the whole big wedding. I want to do the whole thing, this extra beauty and all of that. And I think the willingness to tell the truth about where I am and just know that also that I have support systems. So something I didn’t have before. My previous relationship. I have two people I really trust. An amazing relationship coach and my therapist, and then small set of friends that can keep my energy high, my environment, because I know some of my patterns around wanting to go celibate, because celibacy is the sexiest thing I can find. Sometimes it is super sexy to be celibate. I get so much done. I won’t be all frustrated because I can totally relate to some of the Things that you were talking about, some of you earlier, about creating this false reality about someone and being in love with that illusion, that has really set me back. I’ve been there a few times where I’m like, I am going celibate because it is dangerous out there.

And it’s really. That will, this is it. With why am I creating these false illusions about people? Why can’t I just be in that space of holding them where they are and honoring where they are and say, hey, this is just something that’s not workable? Or this is something that’s workable.

One of the other discoveries too, is the willingness to be flexible. This is the last thing I’ll talk about, the willingness to be flexible. Because one of the things I was like, I need to be with a gay man. This is one orientation. And I’m not gonna go with the complexities of these other expressions.

Some of the things I found in dating, maybe just because of just where my gender, I’m kind of fluid within how it looks.

Pansexuals, bisexual men who are also looking to connect, have.

That was something very unexpected and I really didn’t give much consideration. So it’s been a learning curve of being with men who have had long term relationships with women who are also equally engaged with other gender expressions. And before I was very determined it was going to be gay men. And I’m finding some of the deeper connections I’ve been with other types of orientations. That willingness to go beyond what I know, to just take a leap, take a leap out there and try to see what else I can experience. So, yeah, that’s where I am.

[00:50:37] Matt Landsiedel: I love your last point, because I think that’s so important. Like, we have some things being demisexual that can create a lot of rigidity and what we need, but being open to different experiences, different people, I think is huge. Like even just for example, like a man who has been with a woman, like in your context, Ron, women tend to open men up, make them more emotionally available, more in tune to themselves. And so men that are bisexual and have dated women, they tend to have a greater capacity, at least in my experience, to be able to meet us as demisexual men in the ways that the woman would have likely wanted to have been met emotionally and more intimately as well. So keeping yourself open, I think that’s such a great thing that I can see how that would lead to more success.

Thanks for the perspective. What about you, Andre?

[00:51:24] Andre-Lee Willis: So one of the advantages and I think the privileges that LGBTQ People have is. Is conversations about sex are very upfront, very quick, and almost necessary.

Right. Even there are dating apps where you can put things about your sexual expression as part of the bio.

Right. So it’s not unusual for a gay person to say, do you do oral? You know, and not even in the first five minutes of meeting a person. Ask them that question and no one’s offended. Right. But if a heterosexual man says to a heterosexual woman in the first five minutes, do you do oral? I don’t think it will land very well for them.

I would say my success comes from treating my demisexuality in the same way. I just have certain questions and things that I do that are very upfront right away.

So I’m currently talking to this guy and we moved off of an app and you know, people, you know, we get into that texting thing, but I wasn’t feeling connected, so I just said to him, I said, would it work for us to talk on the phone? And he said, sure.

And immediately in that conversation I felt so connected.

So the very next day I was at a play and I was texting him, and then he sent me a sexual question in the text. And as soon as he said it, I was just so turned on. If I wasn’t at that play, I would have been in the car at his house right then and there.

And, you know, I’m very clear that the probability that he and I may have sex is very, very high.

However, the probability that he and I will be in relationship is extremely low.

Just because I don’t think we’re compatible in that way.

So that’s where I find success. And I think the success too is in just being.

I don’t think I could pre plan getting into a relationship as much as I’d like to. I think sometimes it just happens.

So I think one of the things that I found successful is just being with people and letting them be and discover them and making that connection and then choosing right.

So if he and I connect and we grow closer and closer, we could get in a relationship. And then when the time is right, then I’ll choose.

[00:53:51] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:53:51] Andre-Lee Willis: You know, that’s when I’ll choose. But there’s no doors that are closed. It’s just as a demisexual man, I have to be more flexible in how I choose.

Yeah. And that’s my success.

[00:54:07] Matt Landsiedel: What are the deciding factors for you to go from, okay, this guy could go to his house and bang him after you’ve gotten like some things from him, and then turning that Into a relationship. What do you need in order to make that transition?

[00:54:19] Andre-Lee Willis: Great question. So I would have to see partnership, right. I’d have to see how we both are working towards a common goal and that we’re creating win wins for the two of us.

So if it is cohabitating and it occurs as though moving in together is a win win, Yeah, I. I’m all for it because my life would be better for us living together.

And hopefully your life will be better too.

I feel like if I don’t see a win win, what’s in it for me as well as what’s in it for them?

We don’t need to be in relationship.

[00:54:58] Matt Landsiedel: And are you okay with keeping that person as, like, a friends with intimacy or friends with benefits, Whatever you want to use as.

[00:55:03] Andre-Lee Willis: I would prefer it because, you know, the demisexuality is like a budding flower. So, you know, the more connected I get, the more it gives me permission to expose the freak.

You know that.

[00:55:23] Ron Fisher: Yeah.

[00:55:23] Andre-Lee Willis: And, you know, that’s why I’ve always kind of looked at marriage as a great thing, Because I’ve always looked at it as though it would give me permission to be as sexual as possible.

Because we’re just. To me, if we’re married, we’re at the highest level of connection. So, you know, if my husband says, andre, I want to put my dick in your ear, I’d be like, okay, if a friend with benefits comes to me or anything less than that, it’s like, I want to put my dick in your ear. They’re just gonna get such a judgmental look, and then it’s hell no.

So, yeah.

[00:56:02] Matt Landsiedel: Yes. Demisexual men were not prudes, folks. We are actually. We can be freaky. We just need the right environment. We’re like an orchid, right? Beautiful. We just need a really good environment in order to be able to thrive.

So, okay. Successes. It’s funny. Ron needs a rabbi.

Kaseylikes monks.

I tend to be drawn towards therapists, My last two boyfriends who have been therapists. And that’s where I found a lot of success, because therapists are trained in the things that I need in order to get off, like emotional validation, emotional attunement, eye contact, listening, curiosity. Like, all these beautiful qualities that allow me to kind of really sink into a connection. So I think that’s been huge. And with those two. With those, my last two exes, I’ve maintained friendship. And we. We were able to kind of hold this friends with intimacy, which is where I started to play around with.

I’ve never actually had friends with intimacy develop. I’ve had a relationship progress into friends with intimacy, and that’s allowed me to kind of have that. So I’d love to be able to build friends with intimacy with somebody that’s just genuinely a person that I haven’t dated. I want to be able to go in that other direction.

So developing a friendship first would be for me where if I’m not wanting a relationship, it allows me to get to know the person, learn about them, learn about their positive qualities, be able to, like, really, again, not necessarily have to create that romantic fantasy of them. I get to actually experience that of them. They’re sharing with me. They’re letting me into who they are. And I get to actually have the experiential fantasy as opposed to the, you know, created in my own mind. Taking it slow, like, that’s just. It’s essential that the pacing for me is when my nervous system says, okay, yep, and I. I hit these milestones. When those milestones are checked off my body functions properly. I’m able to feel good. I’m able to get my needs met. I’m able to speak up like. And I think that’s a big, big factor for me. Usually I’m the one in the context where I am the more vulnerable one. I’m very open, I share, I wear my heart on my sleeve. And I think leading the way by practicing vulnerability has been a big thing for me because oftentimes, if I were just to leave it up to the other guy to be vulnerable and show me that side of him, it’s not going to happen. Very, very few guys are. Have that capacity to be genuinely vulnerable. And so when I lead that by example, I find that I get what I want, right? It’s like I’ll take my mask off first. I’ll be, you know, vulnerable first, and then I usually get that in return. So.

And then a big factor for me. I used to determine my attraction based off of appearance. And I would always think, like, why am I not feeling something for this guy? He’s so hot. He’s got all the things that all the guys in the gay community are so drawn to. But I feel nothing for this guy. So I’ve had to learn to govern my attraction based off of energetics.

Demisexual. As a demisexual, like, I am turned on by the person’s energy and who they are. I can feel how much work they’ve done on themselves. I can feel how embodied they are. I can feel their capacity for intimacy. And vulnerability. So I’m a feeler in that respect. So if I focus on energetic attraction, it usually leads me to the promised land. I think that’s, that’s a big factor.

So. Okay, we have one last question to go.

So advice for other demisexual men who might be struggling in their dating lives.

So, Casey, why don’t we start with you.

What advice do you have for other demisexual men?

[00:59:32] Kasey Cromer: Well, the first thing is, I will definitely say, which I talked about before, is really having the right people in your life to really support you and really know you and really be able to. Even people who are skilled, right, not say, have to have be a professional coach, but someone skilled at listening, someone they remind you of who you are. Because sometimes in dating it can be challenging regardless of whether you’re demisexual or not, but just those individuals that can kind of give you that support you need. And sometimes it’s basically cheering on and listening ear, not trying to solution for anything, but just to be seen. Because sometimes dating, I can say from my own experience, sometimes you don’t entirely be seen. They can see you and think they’re seeing you by like talking about these external qualities. But for me, as someone who’s demisexual, it’s important to remember to have those who can see the things that you really value.

The second thing is just giving myself space and giving yourself space for changing your mind. Everyone has a right to change their viewpoint so much about how I thought dating would go and who I’ll be attracted to, who’ll be attracted to me has totally shifted in ways that was very unexpected and it really surprised me, which I talked about in the last part, about pansexuals and bisexuals and these different expressions, right?

And then just I remind myself, is that my way of expressing. Continue to remind yourself that your way of showing up in the world. As long as you’re in your heart and you’re kind and you’re taking care of you and others, it’s fine. It’s. No, there’s not a problem to be had to discover. There’s not a problem to discover. But really this way of seeing abundance in who you are and how you’re showing up in the world is really reminding yourself to shift your lens from what other people are seeing and stand in your own shoes and your own body and then look into the world not from a place of making, okay, they’re not like me, they’re wrong or they’re like me, they’re my people. It’s Just like being this place of exploration with the whatever the guard rails where you are to feel safe.

So I would say those are my main things.

[01:01:37] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, I love that. Listening to yourself. I’m hearing that like listening to yourself, allowing people to see you. I’m curious for you, like how much of it is you having to teach people who you are as opposed to people taking an interest in finding out who you are. Is it like a balance or do you find that you had to like first start really sharing this with people before it became like conversational?

[01:01:57] Kasey Cromer: Oh, definitely. Well, I love communicating. So yes, I definitely. It is that learning curve of sharing who I am and then resetting, really getting skilled at really sharing what my needs are. Really being that willingness to see if they can hold my needs and also share my feelings, be able to hold those in those places and how they honor them and vice versa. How do I honor their needs too? Because it’s not always in the world of dating, you don’t always hear what you want to hear because you feel like you can find the most perfect guy. But how do you continue to create possibility in these relationships? How do you allow yourself, like what you guys have shared, like transform. Right. Certain relationships. So if it’s not what you’re looking for, like, there’s certain people that I have a deep connection to that initially it didn’t work dating wise, but they’re really good tennis friends of mine, we play tennis together. Other people are spiritual. Like, how do we create connection? Connection doesn’t always have to be partnership or romance. It could be intimacy, connections. It can be someone you play tennis with. It could be someone that you’re doing great spiritual work with. So I’ve also learned that connection and my fulfillment is not just centered around sexual experience. After the emotional side. It can be other parts of me that want to be honored as well. But it does start with that communication, which is really important.

And also when people don’t hear you, because sometimes people just don’t hear you. They want what they want. There’s a lot of noise in their mind. And when they go too far, it’s like boundary. Communicating your boundary and going back in and giving people that chance to really show up. Because I do think we as humans, it gets messy and confusing. How can we show up for each other and give space for humanity? Right. That’s the whole thing. So in communication and then know where your edge is, sometimes certain things aren’t workable. You gotta be like, you got to go. But, you know, but it’s not always that. And I could be an all or nothing type of queen. So I’m really trying to continue to work on that rigidity piece of it. And that’s why, for me, having a therapist, having a relationship coach is really important to have them reflect the deeper parts of yourself that really need to be seen, because sometimes it’s easy to get comfortable operating in fear and other pieces that you’re still working on healing from.

[01:04:08] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. Beautiful advice. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

Let’s move over to you, Ron. What advice do you have?

[01:04:15] Ron Fisher: Well, I really. Kasey really said a lot resonated with me, and I would say the same thing.

And I think, too, at when you go into meeting other people, I love the book the Velvet Rage. I thought it was great and in it for me at this time in my life because I didn’t come out TILL I was 63. It was like, who was I going to meet that didn’t have baggage? I mean, that’s pretty hard to do. And you have to meet someone that you can communicate with. Communication is key to any relationship. And then you can unpack that bag together. And if you can do that, you can develop a rapport and a relationship. And what you said earlier, like, I have learned about me so much from dating, from the people that I was attracted to and the relationships I had to learning how to communicate, learning how to express myself. And it’s just been a total learning curve. And what I really feel that’s good for me is, like I said right at the very beginning, is I feel very confident and very sure with who I am.

I didn’t get knocked out of the park by things that happened to me.

And so I think that is really a key piece.

However, you find that whether it’s through therapy, through, you know, or having that those people there in my situation. I’ve been a hair stylist for 54 years, and I have all those relationships behind the chair, and trust me, I share.

I share. I will share this. I will talk about this. I talk about all those things and those people in my life. We’ve supported each other, and I believe it’s our stories and our conversation, and that’s how we need to connect. And that’s my advice.

[01:05:58] Matt Landsiedel: Follow connection. That’s your message today. At least that’s how I’m. I’m receiving you for sure. Follow connection. Thanks, Ron.

Andre, what about you?

Shower us with your wisdom.

[01:06:12] Andre-Lee Willis: So here’s what I’d offer. Four things. Be patient.

Do the work. Have a powerful place to Stand and be optimistic. So when you find that you like something that is not the majority, right, Statistically, you’re already looking at a smaller pool.

So if I know I’m attracted to tall men, right, I think statistically only 10% of the male population in the world is like over six feet tall.

So that’s a smaller pool right now. It’s still millions, right? It’s millions of men, but it’s still a smaller pool.

So as you throw into the hat the things in which you’re looking for it may make the pool smaller. So it’s important to be patient in order to get what you’re looking for, because you’re already coming into the equation with certain things that you want that are not prevalent.

The reason why you want to do the work is because at times you may feel exhausted. You know, there’s times when you may feel like you want to give up.

And my promise is, once you get what you want, it’s worth it. Once we all get what we want, we forget all the things that happened before. We don’t care about how hard it was. We’re just happy that we got what we got, right?

So, you know, do the work. Because statistically, there’s a science to this. Like you watch the Bachelor, Bachelorette, and all these dating shows, there’s a reason why there’s 1 to 20 on the show.

They know the science of it is it takes a certain number to find that particular one.

Be patient and do the work. Because we don’t have a team of people vetting people and then saying, Here’s 20 people to choose from. Go ahead and date em. You’ll find one.

So you got to do the work, you got to vet them, you got to find them, you’ve got to narrow it down.

It’ll be, you know, that you can trust.

And if you have a powerful place to stand, you know, you’re demisexual, you know who you are, you can’t be deterred. There’s no make wrong. When you know who you are and where you stand, even if you are wrong, it doesn’t matter because you’re just staying true to yourself, right? So I have a powerful place to stand in, you know, be optimistic. You’ll find what you’re looking for. Just keep at it. Don’t be discouraged. And we all have moments. Let it just be that a moment and then just pick it back up and start new, start all over.

So that’s it.

[01:08:43] Matt Landsiedel: Thank you, Andre. Some good advice there. I love that Mine are similar.

I’LL just start off by saying be willing to be different. Be willing to be different.

Be upfront about your demisexuality. If you’re resonating with this, no more people pleasing like own the trait, own the quality and educate. Right? Educate people and say yeah, I’m demisexual. You can list it now on Tinder in different places and let people know that this is what you are. Oftentimes people have no clue what it is when they start talking to me. So I’ll just say this is how I define it. This is how I am right up, up front. And does that make me more prone to rejection? 100%. But I’m daring to be different and I think when we dare to be different we are willing to risk rejection for connection. I think that’s really really important.

So communicating your needs and boundaries up front, get clear about what those are for you.

[01:09:35] Kasey Cromer: Right?

[01:09:35] Matt Landsiedel: We hopefully stimulated that for you today. But you can see like even with the four of us we have different needs and different boundaries associated with our desires. And I think it’s important to get clear about what yours are.

Take your time, weed out people who aren’t willing to. As soon as I tell people I need a slow burn connection even just for intimacy like or for sex like if they’re try rushing me or they’re not willing to respect my pace and I’m usually the one that dictates the pace because of being demisexual then at least I know right? This person isn’t doesn’t have enough patience and I think patience is a virtue and I anybody that relates with me they’re going to have to have patience as a virtue to be able to experience me in those more intimate ways. I think so I can’t state this one enough but don’t compare yourself to non demi guys because we’re not non demi guys. We are demisexual men and we have a different likely nervous system and we have a different way of feeling aroused and these sorts of things. So just own being demisexual and don’t compare yourself to guys that can go out and have sex with 10 guys in one weekend. Don’t compare yourself to that because it’s just not who we are. Right? Not saying that’s wrong at all. It’s just a different lane. Right. And I’m, I’m in this lane and they’re in that lane and there’s nothing wrong with having being in different lanes. Embrace your depth and capacity for intimacy. I think this is actually an evolved trait. It’s an evolved quality. I think we’ve done a lot of deep work on ourselves and we’ve gotten to a place where we have this great capacity for emotional availability and intimacy and depth. And I think we should celebrate that in a big way.

Choose dating apps that are in alignment with what you are seeking.

So if you’re looking, if you’re a demisexual looking on Grinder, Scruff or Sniffies for these things, it’s not going to be likely you’re going to find what you’re looking for there. Right? That’s where you go to find the bag of chips. If you’re looking for the 10 course meal, you ain’t going to find it on on those places. And it’s very rare. It does happen that you can find what you’re looking for there. But I find we tend up responding better to like Hinge or Tinder or Bumble or OkCupid. These sorts of apps tend to be better for demisexual men because it’s encouraging people to put more effort into the other things that allow us to move towards the things we’re looking for. So and last but not least, trust your instincts. Most demisexual people I know are either highly sensitive, intuitive, empathic, they have these other qualities and we are very instinctual, very intuitive. So follow that. If somebody feels like they’re a good vibe and you have resonance with them, then follow that. If it’s not there, don’t use your mind to try and convince your body to move towards something that doesn’t feel in alignment. I would say really, really listen to the body because the body’s communicating more truth, in my opinion, than, than our minds. So listening to our body can be be a huge asset.

All right, lots of good stuff, guys. Before we wrap up, is there any final comments, anything that got stimulated that you want to share with the audience before we wrap?

[01:12:25] Kasey Cromer: No, AFO complete.

[01:12:27] Matt Landsiedel: Good. All right, well, thanks for coming on guys, like, and I know it’s not easy to come on and talk about your sexuality publicly to, you know, thousands of people. So I really want to honor your truth and your courage to come on and be vulnerable today. So it’s likely going to help somebody or many people understand themselves better. So I really do appreciate that. And for the listener, viewer, if you’re watching on YouTube, drop us some comments, ask us questions if you want, share with us your experience of being demisexual. What are some of the strengths, challenges, struggles?

We’d love to hear your input and let’s start to normalize this and get the conversation happening in the comments section because it’s so important to come together. And maybe, who knows, maybe you’ll meet somebody cool in the comments section just by sharing your story. So, yeah, we’ll see you guys at the next episode. Much love, everybody.

Sam.