Feeling Your Emotions

[00:00:00] Michael DiIorio: Foreign.

[00:00:08] Matt Landsiedel: Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gaiman’s Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Landsiedel, and joining me today are Michael DiLorio and Reno Johnston. As always, today we’re talking about feeling your emotions. We’ve done a few episodes on this topic, but today we’re going to break it down with new awareness. We’ve grown, we have new experiences with feeling our emotions. We’re going to be exploring questions like what are the consequences of not feeling your emotions? How do you navigate emotions that feel overwhelming or uncomfortable? And how can we create spaces where people feel safe expressing their emotions?

What we want you to get out of today’s episode is the importance of feeling emotions and how we can do it more effectively. We want to normalize emotions as challenging they are for most people and find ways to come together to support one another in this challenging task of feeling intense emotions. If you’re new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. And if you’re listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. And just remember, this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. If you enjoy what we’re creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show using the link in the show notes or you can tap the thanks button on YouTube. You can also subscribe to early access option on Apple Podcast Listen ad free and gain early access to episodes. All your support does help us continue making content for you and supporting our community.

And we do thank you in advance.

Okay, so why this topic?

Well, I think I’m going into my 19th year of doing counseling. I’ve been doing this for a long time and most human beings, I’m going to be completely honest, most human beings really suck at feeling their emotions. I think it’s really important to develop skill set around this. It’s important to have conversations around this. I really think we should be learning this in school.

How to work with your nervous system. Imagine if we learn this in school. It would really set us up for for success in our relationships and relationship to ourself.

So I do think this is a very important topic to unpack.

Let’s start with what are emotions? Some of you might not know what emotions are or how to deal with them, these sorts of things. So let’s break it down. I kind of wanted to unpack. You know, I titled this Feeling your emotions, actually, quite intentionally.

Feelings and emotions, believe it or not, are not actually the same thing. They’re similar, but they’re. They’re different.

So emotions are psychological and physiological responses to a trigger or stimulus. They come from our nervous system and are experienced in the body as physical sensations, whereas feelings are the meaning that we make of emotions.

So in short, emotions are responses and feelings are interpretations.

So we can have feelings about the emotions that we are experiencing.

So today we’re going to be unpacking both. You can frame it and you can talk about it in whatever context you want to talk about it in, but we can have an emotion come through. Our body usually takes around 90 seconds for an emotion to go through. If you don’t put up any resistance and you don’t make any meaning of it, it’ll just come through your nervous system. But what we do as human beings is we, our ego wants to grab on to the meaning of it. We might shame ourselves. We might be like, why am I feeling this? We might make it mean something about ourselves that we’re not good enough or whatever it might be. And we perpetuate an emotion and we prolong it by attaching a meaning to it. Right? Human beings, we’re meaning making machines. We’re, that’s all we’re doing. We’re just making meaning of everything.

And it’s no different when it comes to our emotional world.

So you might be asking yourself, why do we have emotions? Well, there’s one primary thing. It’s emotions almost act as our compass. They’re constantly showing us and pointing us in the direction of our needs.

So when we have a positive emotion come through, like joy or happiness, it’s a sign that we’re actually getting a need met. We’re feeling really good about ourselves. We’re having a need is being met in our lives.

Whereas when we’re having a negative emotion, we are getting a sign that we have an unmet need in our life. So if we can start to employ more curiosity around our emotions, we can start to get curious about the data. Right. I look at emotions, they’re just loaded with data and wisdom, and we can start to get clear about what we, what unmet needs are going on in our life. So we can start to regulate our emotions by getting our needs met. Okay.

However, in most of our upbringings, most of us were raised by emotionally probably unintelligent or unaware avoidant parents or grandparents. Because it’s not very common that our cultures encourage emotionality. Right? There’s a Lot of shame around emotionality, especially things like anger or shame or fear, these sorts of things. A lot of us want to contain it and hide it from one another.

So today’s conversation, I want it to be about us being able to express and share that we are all emotional creatures and emotions are beautiful. Right. And we can’t, we can’t just turn off the, the negative emotions and leave the positive ones on. When we turn off our emotions altogether, we’re turning off all of our emotionality.

So I want to have this conversation with you guys and I’m actually really excited to unpack it because I spend my days and I have for 19 years talking about emotions and stuff and I find it very fascinating the way different people deal with emotions. And I’m, I’m really curious about your guys experience. So let’s start with Michael today and I am curious, what are the consequences of you not feeling your emotions?

[00:05:52] Michael DiIorio: Great intro, thank you for that. Love it. And as you guys both know, I love this topic. I was just saying before I get so excited when we get to talk about emotions, this is a hard one for me to answer because I’m pretty good at feeling them now and I always, always have been, I’ve always been emotional, whether you take that to mean a good thing or bad thing. But yeah, I think though when the times that I have kind of suppressed them have been the times where I’ve been at the most meh. Apathy, like apathetic in my life. And it goes to that what you had just said there, Matt, about you can’t numb just some of them, the painful ones, obviously the ones we don’t want to feel. When you do that, you numb all of them. And so that’s, I think what happens for a lot of people out there. I see this a lot as well, you know, having a apathetic kind of view on life, on your life, on yourself, a disinterest in the things you care about. Not having the motivation to engage in your life feels like numbness in the long term, it could lead to depression. It could be depression in fact. And a quote that I love, that I always refer back to is the opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is indifference. And when you apply this to yourself and your emotions, it’s really a lack of concern for your emotional well being and it is a form of self neglect. And I have been in those places where I have numbed so much through sex, usually where I just didn’t feel anything.

Like I was just, I Was just numbed everything. I numb to the joy. I numbed everything because I wasn’t afraid or because I was afraid rather, in that time of feeling lonely. That was my deeper, deeper pain there. And so I think that’s what happens to a lot of people. Again, I talk to a lot of men and I think men have this a lot, this sense of apathy. And I think it comes from a fear of feeling, a fear of feeling your emotions. You’re afraid to try because you might fail. You’re afraid to put yourself out there because you might get rejected. And so all this, all this to say we become afraid of living life and so we just kind of back away from it. We withdraw from life altogether. Because living life and putting yourself out there and doing all these things could put you in a position where you could come face to face with some kind of emotional pain. We’ll call it that. And that hurts. Of course it hurts. It’s supposed to hurt. It’s meant to be there.

And a quick little sidetrack. One of my other favorite topics is self compassion. And I think when you don’t have that skill of self compassion, this is amplified.

When you do have that skill of self compassion, I think you’re more likely to take those risks. Do those things put yourself out there because you know that, yes, it could put you face to face with emotional pain. And also you know how to handle that, right? That’s kind of what self compassion is. So what does apathy have to do with not feeling your feelings? It’s really that suppression of all emotion. And I think that’s such a key point that we make. And Brene Brown talks about that. And you know, a lot of experts have said the same thing. You can’t selectively numb. And yet that’s what I do. I will numb when I’m not feeling it. Like I notice for me, if I’m feeling stressed, I’ll go check what’s in the fridge. Am I hungry? No. If I’m stressed, I’ll reach for my phone. Do I need to do anything with my phone? Absolutely not. Or I will clean the house. Something that doesn’t need to be done. Sounds nice, but like that’s kind of what I do. And. But that numbing, it takes a toll. So I think that that intention is there, like the numbing is there to kind of keep us safe from emotional pain. But what I’ve learned is emotional pain is part of the human experience and it’s not something I need to be kept safe from. In Fact, I need to open up to it. And when I do, that’s when I feel the most alive. That’s when I feel the joy and the pain. And I’m, I’m. I’m here for all of it because all of it is real. All of it is here. Yeah, I think, I think I’ll leave it there.

[00:09:35] Matt Landsiedel: It’s interesting about self compassion. We talked about it in the reparenting episode.

And when we experience compassion from our parents when we’re feeling big emotions and our parents get down to our level and they offer compassion and understanding and curiosity about our emotions, that’s how we actually learn self compassion for our own emotionality. So if we didn’t get that, there’s going to be a high likelihood that we turn away from ourselves when our emotions get big. Because we got modeled that people turn away from us when our emotions got big. Right. It’s just a really fascinating correlation. I’m curious for you, what emotion would you say is the most challenging for you to experience?

[00:10:14] Michael DiIorio: Well, shame.

[00:10:15] Matt Landsiedel: Shame.

[00:10:16] Michael DiIorio: Shame. Yeah. I mean I know it very well, yet it’s still challenging. And you know, I think that’s probably the case for a lot of people. Shame, despair, grief, probably for a lot of people are going to be the really heavy ones. Shame for me has been always around. So I know it. As I said, I know it when it shows up. My God, here we go again. Here we go again with this. I know what it sounds like, I know what it feels like, but I’ve done that work now. Whereas before when I had that sense of shame, I would do all the other things except. Except for feel it. And unfortunately there is no way around shame. There is only directly straight through it, right through the front door. So yeah, that’s probably the most prevalent for me.

[00:10:53] Matt Landsiedel: What was the consequence of you not feeling your shame prior before you learned the skills of being with shame?

[00:10:59] Michael DiIorio: Numbing. And the consequences of numbing was that again the disassociation from myself and from my life in general because I was constantly on this numbing hamster wheel. Like how can shame is the deeper core pain. And I would try to numb that with surface level pleasure for me. Sex scrolling, whatever. Pick your pleasure. Of course that doesn’t work. That’s just a band aid on top of a giant wound. Like it’s not. But I mean the dopamine felt good in the short term. And then what? And then we go for it again. And then again and again and again. And guess what? The shame doesn’t go away. The Shame’s still there, just waiting to be felt. And that’s the way I look at it now as I see emotions. Literally, I imagine, like, coming to my front door, knock, knock, knock. Hi, I’m here. And you can’t deny it. You can’t turn it away. You need to let it in, unfortunate as that may be. And I use the analogy you invited in for some tea and you sit down and you have a nice little moment with Shane, and that’s kind of what the allowing process is, which we’ll talk about in the next part.

[00:11:57] Matt Landsiedel: Cool. Yeah, I like that.

Mr. Reno, what about yourself?

[00:12:01] Reno Johnston: I made a list and I’m like, I. I don’t want to scare people, but.

But this really does matter. So, like, the consequences of not feeling your emotions.

Breakdown, burnout, disease, dis ease, deteriorating mental, physical, emotional, relational, financial health, depression, numbness, apathy, as Michael said, loss of sense of purpose, fatigue, impotence, anxiety, anger issues, addiction, abuse, self harm, violence, incarceration, somatic issues, muscular issues, joint issues, inflammation. There’s a long list. Yeah, there’s a long, long list. And, you know, I could probably go on. And this is what I find so fascinating is like, the simplicity and the complexity of emotion. Right. Like we just discussed it here. It’s as simple as meeting what’s there. And in 30 seconds, I think you said, if you can hold space for it, there’s a shift that happens. And I would say it starts to happen even sooner than 30 seconds in. But, you know, probably I’m imagining, and I’m. I’m no scientist here, expert, but, like, you know, to run its course, yes, you’ll probably have to spend an extended period of time, but even just like initially giving yourself that space. I find within 5 to 10 seconds, I’m already starting to notice shifts happening physiologically, mentally, emotionally. Like, it’s. It’s really fascinating to see.

And my experience is it’s like, yeah, it’s simple, but it’s not easy.

You know, I remember.

So I love how you open this conversation, too, because you mentioned the distinction between feeling and emotion. And I remember watching this documentary. I highly recommend it. It’s called E. Motion.

And having my own discovery around emotion as energy in motion and emotions as energetic motions. And so again, to simplify, it’s just the moving of energy. And for whatever reason, we sort of attribute story and feeling and idea to that. And then as a result, and likely that probably stems from impact we’ve experienced during formative years and then onward, as a result, we engage with what Shows up in a way that reflects how we were conditioned to respond to energy. And not just energy as us, but like, and I’m going to get a little woo woo and spiritual here, but energy as a whole, you know, like when, when I talk about like oneness or spirituality or when people say everything is one and it’s all interconnected, it’s like, yeah, it’s all energy.

It’s what binds everything and connects everything. And so. And how are we meeting what’s here? And how are these two things that are actually one corresponding with one another and informing one another and, and what happens when we bring our awareness to that and our observation, Curiosity, compassion, which is again sort of a, an energy or an experience of like opening, receiving, noticing. Like it’s not like, it’s not like minimizing, reducing, blocking, you know, it’s more like holding like what’s there.

And we’re not taught that, like you said, we’re not really taught that. And so that laundry list of consequences, like, you start looking for where those are. Where am I inflamed? Where does it feel difficult to be here?

You know, where does it feel heavy or hot or, you know, contractive, constricted? You’ll find your work, you know, that’s where your work lives. Yeah, it’s wild. I have a friend who does bodywork and he does. I can’t remember the exact terminology for what he does, but he can look at you. And I feel, I feel so naked sometimes when I’m with him. And I kind of empathize with how people sometimes feel when they’re with me because I can read people too. And he can look at me, my physical body, and be like, oh, you know, you’re like inflamed over here. Or like, oh, yeah. And I’m like, how do you know this? Like what? He’s like, oh, well, it’s just, I’m like, wow. So this, this is what it feels like to be on the receiving end of my insight. Interesting. So it’s quite vulnerable, but it’s also fascinating because I’m like, yeah, that tracks. Like how?

And it’s like, oh, you can see it. It’s written all over you, you know.

[00:16:59] Matt Landsiedel: So, yeah, it’s fascinating. Those people, I call them like physical or somatic empaths. And they can.

[00:17:05] Reno Johnston: Yes.

[00:17:05] Matt Landsiedel: So there’s, they can either like perceive or they can actually feel. They can feel the inflammation or feel the pain that you’re feeling in your body. I feel like that would be very exhausting, especially if you Were walking around just feeling people’s headaches and stomach aches and things like that. I know. I know a few somatic empaths, and it’s very exhausting, and they’re. They deal with things like chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, because that’s, like, a lot of stuff to process. So it requires a lot of, like, cleansing and protection of energetic fields and stuff like that.

[00:17:35] Reno Johnston: Yeah. I thank God that I’m only maybe an energetic empath. Like, I can feel people’s. I kind of know what’s going on in their, like, subconscious and unconscious, and I can feel their energy. But, gosh, if I could feel what was happening for them somatically, like, in a very intense way way, I’d be like, oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[00:17:54] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, it’s a lot. I appreciate your quantum and spiritual and metaphysical take.

Yeah, we need more of that. I used to talk more about that stuff, and then, I don’t know, the last couple years, I’ve been focusing more on, like, psychological and stuff like that. But, yeah, my roots are. Are definitely more in the spiritual realm.

[00:18:13] Reno Johnston: I know this about you. Yeah.

[00:18:15] Matt Landsiedel: But I’m curious. I want to ask you the same question.

What emotion would you say is like, the hardest for you to.

[00:18:21] Reno Johnston: You know, I was trying to go through it, right. I was like, okay, you know, is it shame? Is it anger? Is it. You know, what is it? And what. What I came up with is, I think first I went anger. And then what I often understand is that behind that is kind of like a sadness, but what I landed on. And I can really feel it in my body as I say it. And I know it’s something I’m even still working through, and I can feel where it lives, but it’s grief. And the thing about grief, and my mom said this to me recently. She said, reno, it sounds like you’re grieving.

And I was like, oh. And she’s like, you know, people think grief looks a particular way, but it shows up in this really sort of vast, dynamic way. And when she said it, I could feel the resonance of it. When she said grief, I was like, oh, that hadn’t even occurred to me. And so I think that throughout my life, because there has been so much grief. Like, even saying that right now brings up emotion for me. And I’m so great at just, like, getting on with it. I never wanted to go there. You know, I was like, I don’t want to deal with that. It’s too much. You know, and so I would just be happy or dismiss it or make the best of it or move on and be like, yeah, let’s just move on. You know, like, it’s fine. I’m good. I’m all right. I got it to my detriment, you know, And I’m, I’m, to this day still working through how I really relate to grief when it shows up. Because there are a lot of reasons to be experiencing grief, whether it’s like, stuff that I’m dealing with from, like my past. You know, my biological father’s here visiting this weekend and that brought up some stuff for me. I’m moving. I’m in transition. I’m saying goodbye to this house. The world is a dumpster fire. And it’s also really beautiful. It’s like there’s a lot to be grief full for and grateful for, you know, and it’s like, oh, right, yeah. Thank you for asking. That’s a good question.

[00:20:37] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. I feel you on everything you just said. I’m going through a rebirth and have been for the last three years. And it’s like there’s an excitement of coming into, but also a fear of coming into who I’m becoming. But there’s a grief of leaving behind the person that I’m so familiar with. Even if he has trauma and he’s scared and he’s got these parts to him, he’s familiar. Right. And it’s like going into that, like, new territory. It is, it requires courage and, and grieving the loss of the parts of us that we’re ready to move on from. Yeah.

[00:21:07] Reno Johnston: What about you?

[00:21:08] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. So the consequences of not feeling my emotions, the first one for me is like a no brainer. It’s ruminating or overthinking. So I have spent a lot of my life thinking my emotions and thinking I was really good at emotional processing. And I’ve been humbled the last three years that, oh yeah, thinking your emotions is not the same as feeling them.

So I know for me, when I’m in rumination or overthinking that there’s an emotion that I’m. That I haven’t been with yet. And if I do sit with that emotion, the ruminating stops. It’s fascinating. And it takes 90 seconds. Usually physiologically it takes 90 seconds. I still do all the gymnastics with, you know, my mind and stuff. So it probably takes me a lot longer than that. But I’m trying to learn to just let the emotion move through without trying to make so much meaning of it, at least at first, make the meaning afterwards. Right. Which is, you know, you can get the data for the needs and things like that. So. But when I’m not feeling, you know, I’m. I’m not getting that. That data. So I’m not. Not aware of my needs, I’m not aware of my fears or these sorts of things. It’s just like I’m kind of frozen to myself. That’s a really big piece. And I’m not also feeling love and pleasure and inspiration and these sorts of things. Like, you know, I’m. I’m kind of going through like, like I said, a rebirth, and I’m thawing out parts of myself that have been dissociated. And I’m just like, wow. Like, you know, now when, like, you know, someone says something nice to me and I’m able to actually truly receive it as a compliment, it hits differently, you know, like, I’m feeling the positive emotions a lot more beautifully. And then to what you said, too, like, emotions, there’s so much research to back this up. Like, when they’re not experienced, they’ll store in our bodies. It’s not just like they evaporate, right? Or I wish, but they store in our bodies. And for a lot of people, it’s their shoulders or their tummy or their hips, right? Lower back pain, ibs, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue. All of these things that are. Have psychosomatic underpinnings. Like, they’re really people that haven’t learned how to process probably grief. A lot of it is grief that they haven’t processed from their childhoods or whatever it might be.

And then the last one I wrote here is just no tolerance to triggers. Like, if you’re not feeling your emotions, your window of tolerance is not growing. And I think that’s a big thing, is learning how to expand the window of tolerance. So, you know, when I go into a relationship and I have a disagreement with my partner, my nervous system doesn’t go completely haywire and I say mean things or I have to stonewall or become defensive. I’m actually able to tolerate being in my emotional experience with somebody else in conflict and not completely lose myself. It’s really important.

[00:23:47] Reno Johnston: So the question you asked us.

[00:23:49] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah.

[00:23:50] Reno Johnston: Which one do you grapple with?

[00:23:52] Matt Landsiedel: I think it’s a tie between probably fear and jealousy, I would say, but I think everything’s underpinned by fear. You can’t have shame without fear. You can’t have jealousy without fear. Right. It’s like either you’re fearing abandonment, you’re fearing rejection, you’re fearing so fear for me, it just. It’s. It can feel all consuming.

Right. Having to get up in public, speak in front of a group of people can bring up fear for me, and it almost like it takes over my body. My. My stomach gets all tied up in knots and. And stuff like that. So. Yeah, so probably fear, I would say.

[00:24:24] Reno Johnston: Can I ask you one more question?

[00:24:26] Matt Landsiedel: Sure, yeah.

[00:24:27] Reno Johnston: Feels a little bit edgy because I. I know it might be a vulnerable question, maybe, but where do you find fear showing up the most for you right now?

[00:24:35] Matt Landsiedel: Probably socially, because I’m. I’m in this space. I would say I’m, like, 75 into this new version of myself and 25 in the old version. My ego is, like, holding on for dear life. He does not want to let go. And I’m in this in between. So, like, I’m in this weird place in my life, and it’s like I feel like I don’t want to be seen in this place of not having it together or not feeling like I’m doing good enough or something. It’s just like all these parts of myself are reconciling.

So I feel fear of being seen right now. I really want to just be in bed, under my covers and just, like, let this transform. But I know that’s not how it works, right? It transforms because you move through the. That you don’t want to move through. So.

[00:25:17] Reno Johnston: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. It’s reminding me of a conversation I was having with a client yesterday.

And, you know, anonymity. Won’t say who or anything, but. But like, just a theme that was coming up around this sort of liminal period. This, like, transitional, liminal, transformative period that they were in and the humility that it required. And I was like, I’m really reading, like, a lot of stubbornness coming from you. And I want to hold space for it and really love it because I get that this is difficult, you know, and also, like, what it seems to be calling forward is like. Like a humility, you know?

So, yeah, it’s just interesting to hear you talk about that because it is challenging to navigate that. And I know I often want to just, like, see you later.

[00:26:14] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The bed’s comfy. When you’re going through a spiritual process or a psychological healing or whatever, it’s like, I just want to be in bed or, like, in nature with no one around.

[00:26:27] Reno Johnston: Yeah. Or if I go out into public, I’m like, sunglasses. Like, I don’t. I know you can still see me, but I want A barrier. Like, don’t look at me, you know.

[00:26:37] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, yeah. I’m bad at hiding. Like, you know, my eyes reveal everything usually, like. So, yes, I. I feel very vulnerable when, like, people are. Can see me when I’m. And there’s eye contact, which I think is normal for a lot of people. Yeah.

All right, well, we want to hear from you guys. I’m curious about your relationship with emotions. I want you to just take a moment and think about, you know, what is this conversation bringing up for you? What’s your relationship to emotions? Do you turn away from your emotions?

And if you do, what might be the consequences? Get curious about your own experience.

And if you want to come and join us, we’re going to have these discussions in the Gay Men’s Brotherhood in our Sharing Circles and our Connection Circles. Sharing Circles.

Big group. One person talks. Everybody holds space, listens. Come, you know, feel free to come, share your opinions and experiences. Connection Circles. You do what the three of us are doing right now. You go into a little pod and you’re able to unpack some questions and talk about them. It’s more intimate.

So if either of those sound interesting to you, you can go to Gaiman’s Brotherhood.com, check out our event section to RSVP. If you don’t have Facebook, you can get on our email list and we’ll email you the zoom link. The link for that is in the show notes. All right, Michael, how do you navigate emotions that feel overwhelming or uncomfortable?

[00:27:56] Michael DiIorio: Love the question, and I truly think this is a superpower for anyone who can do it. So I highly recommend you listen to this next segment, not just for me, but from all of us. Because, listen, people will all talk about confidence. I coach on confidence a lot. People see me like, oh, you seem so self confident. And I tell them all the time, the root of that is I know how to feel my feelings. And they’re like, oh, that’s not very. That’s not the answer I wanted to hear. I’m like, well, it’s. It’s the truth. That’s what makes it authentic. And the way that I describe it is imagine if you were not afraid of feeling any feelings, if you’re not afraid of feeling embarrassed or humiliated or ashamed, what would you do? How would you show up in the world? You would show people that perceive you as very confident. All right, so in summary, how do I navigate emotions that feel overwhelming or uncomfortable? Here’s some things that I’ve learned and that we’ve said on this podcast. Negative emotion is part of the human experience. We are supposed to have it. No one tells us that. But one of the first things is that when I feel negative emotion, it’s one of the first things I say is nothing has gone wrong, so don’t panic. Nothing has gone wrong. And then what I’ve learned is that when I allow it, I have authority over it, as painful as that may be. And it’s that tolerance to pain. It’s that being able to sit with whatever painful emotions there. And then historically, as I mentioned, when I’ve resisted it, I suffer. And I have plenty of evidence in my 42 years of life of resisting it and suffering versus allowing it and having authority over it and processing it. So let me put on my coaching hat for a sec here. I’ve said it before, I just want to say it again. If you’re new here, let me give you the rundown. The way that I coach is there are four things you can do with these quote unquote, negative emotions, whatever ones feel painful to you. Okay? The first one is what I had said earlier. My favorite, I think a lot of people’s favorite, is to numb it, find some way out of it by seeking some kind of surface level pleasure. Sex, porn, food, alcohol, substances, shopping, apps, even work. I sometimes numb with work. And we all do this to some extent.

And it’s okay. I think in small doses, I think a little bit of escapism, you know, if you want to watch a TV show after a stressful day, that’s okay. The issue is when it becomes in large doses, and then you completely disassociate from yourself. And it’s that self neglect I spoke of earlier and dissociate from your life. And this could lead to addiction, which we’ve talked about before.

So again, notice those urges you have when you’re feeling that whatever negative emotion is there, stress, fear, anxiety, whatever, okay. The second thing we can do with it is to resist it. And this feels very tense. And I imagine. So the analogy I use is emotions coming and knocking on your door and you’re holding the door shut with all of your might. And there’s a lot of tension in there. You’re pretending it’s not there. You’re trying to fight it away and eliminate it, okay? And that takes up a lot of energy. The third thing we can do with negative emotions is to react and to just let it take over and completely overwhelm us. And that what that looks like is taking it out on other people, taking it out on the world at large, taking it out on yourself. When you railing against life, it makes a mess of your life and of your relationships. And in fact, you know you’re doing this when you realize, shit, if I had just dealt with my emotion, I would have had a smaller mess to clean up than now when I look around and I’ve created mayhem in my life. Okay, and finally, the one that works, allowing it, this is number four. And this is just being with it. And it sounds so easy, you know, set it best. It sounds so simple, but Lord knows it is not easy to do and being with it. And I want to underline Matt’s point here is not just in mind, but in body, because you can be with it in mind intellectually, which I’ve done as well, Matt. And then, like, recognize, oh, wait a minute, I’m not feeling it, I’m kind of sensing it, or I’m kind of intellectualizing it. So this. Allowing your emotion is a skill you practice. And this is what I do now, or at least I try to do now when I’m feeling fear, shame, sadness, loss. Those are kind of my favorite negative emotions to feel.

But it’s a skill. And I’ve shared on previous episodes the way I do it. And the first thing is to name it and go beyond bad, sad, mad, glad. Like, really name it. Like, I am feeling. I did this just the other day. I was feeling ragey, and I’m like, no, no, Michael. Like, let’s go. What is this? What is this? And I kind of refined it. And I use an emotional wheel, which I’m sure we’ve all seen before. The emotional wheel has all the colors and different names of the emotions on it. And I. I used frustration. I was feeling frustrated. I wasn’t angry. I wasn’t irritated. I was frustrated. Okay, and then I go into observer mode. Okay, I name it. I’m feeling frustrated. And then where do I feel it in my body?

I observe. I go into that observer witness mode. And for me, frustration feels warm in the cheeks and heavy in my chest. And that’s where I was feeling. And I just noticed it. I don’t know how else to describe it. When we talk about allowing, it’s a very passive. I think that’s why it sounds easy. It sounds very passive. But in fact, it’s actually hard to not to want to tell a story about it, you know, pile on other feelings, interpret it in a way, you know, all the other things. So just noticing that this is what I’m feeling and this is where I’m feeling it in my body. And then I’ll say out loud, this is what frustration feels like.

Like, hello, come on in frustration, let’s sit down, have a tea. This is what it feels like to deal with frustration. Does it feel pleasant? No, but it’s not supposed to. And that’s the key. The key is reminding myself this isn’t supposed to be a pleasant experience.

What makes it less pleasant is when I resist, numb, react.

It’s not supposed to be more pleasant, but at least I can just, you know, allow it to be there, feel it. And again, like, the repercussions are far fewer than in any of the other three that I’ve done before. So, you know, I have some tips here for this. Breathe. Breathe it in. Like, breathe in it, breathe it in, then release it. As many breaths as you need. But I find for me, exhaling is like, my body loves a good breath. And I mean, there’s lots of science out there to, to back that up. You know, I will use the analogy of the wave. You know, a wave, a big wave comes in and it washes over you and you’re like, you succumb to it because it takes you. But then eventually that wave starts to crest and, and then go back down and then eventually falls away. And you just have to be with yourself through it and in your body. I think that’s the thing. Because your nervous system is going to tell you something has gone wrong, right? Your nervous system is saying, panic, panic, panic. And then I remind myself, I don’t need to panic. I just need to hold myself through it. And sometimes I will hold myself. I will, like, hug myself, depending on what that emotion is.

Cry. I will cry if I’m feeling sad. I will. This is the, this is the part where all the tears just flood out. And I might wail if it’s something that’s really sad. If it’s possible, I’ll scream or yell or something. I won’t, I don’t, I don’t hit. I don’t, I don’t do that. But I’ll find a way to process it and release it. Because it is energy, right? I love that. Every now and then, energy in motion. That’s great because it does need to get released somehow through tears or what have you. And I invited in, invited in, have some tea. And guess what? When I, when I invited in, it doesn’t stay too, too long, just more than 90 seconds. But like, sometimes it’s just, you know, an hour or a day. But that, that particular Process doesn’t take me too, too long. Sometimes just a couple minutes. And then after that I might journal. If I can, I’ll kind of journal it out. Then I’m back to like thinking about it and I will receive the message. So communicate. Emotions are communicating a message. So Matt has said at the beginning. I love that, you know, is this a need that’s not being met? Like what’s, what’s going on here? But you don’t do that. Guys. Everyone’s so quick to want to jump to that step. You can’t do that until you’ve really let it in and like let it sit with you. Then you can do that. So that’s my, that’s my process for allowing. But I will say this as well. Like I don’t do this all the time. I, I do it when I can. But sometimes my initial automatic reaction is, is to numb, go for the phone, go for the, go for the dopamine. Cuz that’s going to make it go away. And then once that doesn’t work enough times, I’m like, okay, no Michael, I gotta really sit with this and, and let it in.

[00:36:01] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, that’s like a relationship. The whole time you were talking, I could, I was just visualizing you like having this relationship with frustration. And you’re like, you know, you’re interviewing it and you’re, it’s like you’re kind of.

[00:36:12] Michael DiIorio: Yeah, that movie Inside out was really helpful for me. I recommended to all my clients when they start working with me. And it really helps visualize and understand our emotions and exactly that. We all have a relationship with all of these emotions. And when you ignore them, when you neglect them, it’s going to cause havoc in your life. As much as they are negative or maybe unwanted, you need to find a way to make peace with them. You don’t need to like them, you just need to make peace with them.

[00:36:38] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. And if you’ve, if you’re somebody that’s been really like suppressing your emotions, you’re going to likely have a backlog of emotions. So when you first start going to that relationship with your emotions, it might feel really intense. And I think that’s why a lot of people, they’ll try and open themselves up to feeling again. It’ll feel, they’ll get flooded and then they’re just like, screw this, I’m going back to my phone or whatever. So you have to really be willing to move towards your emotions in a paced way and to develop that initial relationship so you can start releasing the floodgates that you’ve dammed up from a lot of your life.

[00:37:12] Michael DiIorio: Exactly. It’s like anything that’s been stored in there is just waiting to come up. Because as we said, that doesn’t go away. It just. There is that backlog. So. Very good point.

[00:37:21] Matt Landsiedel: Thanks. Michael. What about you, Reno?

[00:37:24] Reno Johnston: Resisting, numbing, distracting, avoiding escaping, food, scrolling.

That sometimes the Real Housewives. Not all the time. Not all the time, but sometimes avoiding sleep and rest and stillness, Stuffing down, resisting.

And then on the reverse end, right, because, like, those. Those are all things that I catch myself being up to as well. And on the reverse end, when I have emotions that feel like when emotion shows up and it feels overwhelming or it feels uncomfortable, I am also in the practice of noticing, you know, where there’s expansion, where there’s contraction, where there is a need for expression as opposed to constriction, you know, and where I might be constricting and where there’s more room for spaciousness.

It’s interesting, too, because, like, you know, I’m motioning with my hands right now, and that’s really telling a story about energy, about emotion, you know, and if you actually. What’s funny is, you know, one of the ways that I. I navigate emotion is through movement and breath and awareness. And so if you start to pay attention to even just like, how you’re moving, how you’re gesturing, where my hands are directing, there’s like this intuitive thing that’s happening. And like Michael had said previously about messages and whatnot, like, if you really start to pay attention, everything is information, everything is a message, you know, and so I think that awareness has definitely continued to help me navigate. Feeling overwhelmed, feeling uncomfortable. I like to use this phrase that came to me, I think it was sometime this year, maybe, maybe last year, befriending yourself and your experience and your life, you know, befriending yourself, befriending your experience, befriending your life. And it’s like, you know, when I think about Michael, when you were speaking earlier, I had this vision of, like, someone showing up at a door to come in and, like, someone opening it and being like, nope, get out. You know, and, like, slamming the door on it, right? And like, we do that. Like, that’s how we treat our cells, you know, and it’s like, to our detriment. To my detriment. So, okay, cool. This is here. It’s not going anywhere.

Let’s hang out. You sit down, you breathe. Maybe you move. If it occurs to you, if stillness is what makes Sense. Maybe there’s a bit of that and just, like, noticing.

But it really is, like, a very simple practice. It’s just so easy to avoid. And it’s also.

Sometimes it’s unconscious. Like, something that’s been so helpful to me is in the wording that’s coming through right now is something is happening. Like, I don’t need to get into the semantics of it all right away, because that’s what the mind wants to do. Place it, compartmentalize it, avoid it, whatever, give it meaning. And then be like, okay, and now we’ll file you over here. And it’s like. Or you could just go, oh, I’m noticing something’s happening right now. I don’t know what that is yet. I just know there’s an experience occurring and then just hang out for a moment, like, just be. You know, which is really, really difficult, especially if you don’t yet know what’s happening, but. Because there’s all this other subconscious, unconscious material taking place.

But I think if we’re, like, attuned emotionally, especially even if we don’t know what it is yet, we can just say something’s happening, and then just sit and let it reveal itself. Like you said earlier, what is here? You know, what is here?

What’s here? What’s this? You know? And it’s been really helpful for me to invite people into that process as well.

Like my mom.

I’ll just, like, think about her sometimes, and then I’ll start crying, you know? Or, like, I’ll reach for the phone to call her, and I’m like, oh, here go the waterworks. And then, you know, and then we’ll be on the phone, and I’m just, like, bawling my eyes out. Because for whatever reason, she evokes that experience, right? Like, that’s the space where it all just kind of comes out. And I love it.

And so who’s that person for you? You know, like, that’s another way that I navigate feeling.

[00:42:17] Matt Landsiedel: That’s so, so cute. I love that. What. What is it about your mom that brings out that side in you?

[00:42:23] Reno Johnston: I think it’s this thing that I’m adopting in myself. Like, I remember. I’m so glad you asked this question, because I remember having this thought years ago. I was like, I used to be so scared that if my mom died, like, I wouldn’t know what the fuck to do with myself. Like, I was like, who am I going to call? And when. I don’t know, like, what am I going to do? You know, Like, I can just pick up the phone in the moments when, like, I cannot see a way out or I feel like everything is caving in on me and, like, she’s just there, you know?

And then there was a period of time where I think it was a combination of her not being there, but also, like, just a lot of me recognizing that I was capable of holding myself.

And so it’s not that that doesn’t still happen, but it’s that my mom, in a way, was able to befriend my experience.

Like, and as a result, there was space for it. And then I learned to do that for myself.

And so I became my own friend and a friend to my own experience.

So much so that there was a moment where I. Where I went, oh, like, obviously, I don’t want my mom to die anytime soon.

When it’s her time, I’m okay, because I’ve learned how to hold myself and life as it shows up and to be okay with whatever comes up when that happens, you know? So, yeah.

[00:43:56] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, it’s beautiful. The mother archetype is very much compassion, nurturing, holding. And you’re not saying. If you’re listening to this and you have a mother that’s not like that. I’m not saying that we all. Yeah, we’re going to have that, but that’s the arc.

[00:44:10] Reno Johnston: She’s not always like that. Let’s get it twisted. Just, like, I’m not always like that with myself or other people. Sometimes I’m like an asshole to myself and to other people. You know, like, we do that. It’s the. The full gamut, you know, there’s so.

[00:44:27] Matt Landsiedel: Much I could answer to this because I. Throughout my journey, I’ve had so many different styles of attempting to find my way to. And I think that’s maybe something I want to leave with the audience is there’s no right or wrong way to do this. It’s really about finding your recipe. And I have clients that really take to certain things. You know, I’ve. I’ve taken to certain things for myself, and that also shifts and changes. Like, how I was processing emotions last year compared to, like, now is different. Right. So it’s. It’s evolving.

But what I’ll normally do is I’ll. I’ll try and meet myself with compassion or humility first, and I’ll just say, like, something like, I’m suffering right now. Like, I’m struggling and just notice it and, like, give myself permission to be in that place and because my other alternative is to turn away Right. And pretend I’m not suffering. So I’ll want to just acknowledge that I’m suffering or struggling at this moment. And then I’ll go through like an I am noticing and I’ll just. Like Michael said, I’ll just notice what’s going on in my body. And I’ll try my best to bring my. My mind down and my attention downward into my body.

And then I think the biggest piece for me and where I start to notice the dissipation of the energy of. Of emotion is when I val.

Because I think that’s something I never really got when I was younger. So I’ve had to learn the skill of emotional self validation as an adult. And that’s been a big part of my reparenting and in my relationships, believe it or not, most of my relationship, not just platonic or romantic, I require the people I’m connecting with to have that as a skill. If they’re good at emotional validation, then I feel safe with them, right? People who are not good at emotional validation or understanding or showing empathy with people’s emotional experiences. I tend to not feel safe with people that are. That are like that. And then once I validate, I can just start getting curious. What do I need? Always, whenever I’m feeling overwhelming or uncomfortable emotions, there’s always something that I need, right? Safety, approval, love, validation, something I’m requiring. So I’ll get curious about that.

And then just honestly, when I’m in the thick of it, I have to try my best to remind myself that it’ll pass because I’ve. You know, sometimes it feels like it’s never going to end. And when you’re in a big emotion storm or you’re in an emotional flashback and it goes on for a day or two and it’s just not dissipating. It’s like, it can be really, really intense and. But it always does pass. Sometimes it just takes longer.

You can reach out to a friend, you know, or your mom.

And then like Michael said, breathing, it’s just so important. The breath is the thing that we have control over. It’s kind of like the key to our nervous system.

If you can learn how your body wants to be breathed in certain emotions and things like that, through experience, you can really process. You know, when the parasympathetic nervous or the, the sympathetic nervous system gets activated, our out breath tends to slow down or speed up and it becomes shallow and rapid. So if you can really out breath slow, it can really help the nervous system come back into A parasympathetic state.

All right. Yeah. Pause. Pause and reflect. And just take a moment and check in with your own emotional experience, your own body. What is this bringing up for you in this moment?

And what have we shared in today’s episode that you might be curious about trying for yourself? Maybe pick one thing from this episode that you want to try and see how it goes perhaps in this next, in this coming week. All right. And if you’re looking to accelerate your personal development journey, you can check out our Coaching Collection. And we have a lot of information in our Coaching Collection. We’ve got 45 premium personal development coaching videos, plus our two courses, Healing Your Shame, which is a course that’s going to take you through and how to process and work with shame and then Building Better Relationships. Again, we need these emotion regulation skills in order to be successful. Insecure relating. So there can be a lot of little gems in that Coaching Collection for you if you’re interested in going deeper in your personal development path. You can gotogaymengoingdeeper.com for more info about our courses.

Okay, final question.

How can we create spaces where people feel safe expressing their emotions?

[00:48:39] Michael DiIorio: Michael, I love all these questions.

[00:48:42] Matt Landsiedel: This is my favorite question of them all.

[00:48:44] Michael DiIorio: Yeah, I. I had to think about this one a bit. So, I mean, the first thing that came to mind is modeling it. As we’ve said many times, this was not taught as much as it should be.

So modeling it, which we are kind of doing now, the three of us, and we do every week, modeling, especially for men, what vulnerability looks like, what sharing looks like, setting the tone for non-judgment, listening, holding space, that’s something that we do. So I think modeling it and helping people feel safe when they know they won’t be shamed or interrupted or dismissed for how they feel and kind of being there for all of it’s just as I said, you have to be there for all of your emotions. You know, letting other people be witnessing it and letting them be in their emotion as well. Right. And validating them. Such a good point. And that means listening, not interrupting, not dismissing how they feel, not trying to change it, not trying to fix it neither. Right. Just listening with empathy and validating those feelings.

Of course you would feel that way. That makes perfect sense. I understand that you feel that way, these kinds of things. Okay, now as I was thinking this, I thought we get the privilege of doing this every week. And I mean, I run men’s groups. I know you guys do as well, so we get to do that. But for A lot of people out there, they don’t have those structures in their life, and you can seek it out. So with some people, it could just be a friend, a mother, a family member, someone that you love and trust. You can have that there.

But you can also seek those out through things like men’s groups, through things like our community events and other structured, facilitated, kind of tangible things. The great thing with structure, at least for me, maybe others like me, is structure really helps ground me. And I feel safe with structure around especially, again, because I wasn’t taught this stuff. So having gone through an experience where someone sets the tone, there’s a facilitator, they’re saying, here’s what we’re going to do, and then this is what we don’t do. These are the boundaries. This is what we share. This is what, you know, oversharing and vulnerability, hangovers. Having someone go through that and create that structure, those agreements. Confidentiality is a big one. And having a leader, a facilitator, can really, really help you and feel safe and create that emotional safety. So you can take that one small step and what you’ll realize. What I’ve realized is it’s not about saying the perfect thing. It’s really just about how you show up with somebody. And oftentimes you don’t have to do very much.

It’s really about being grounded, being quiet, listening and being present and focused on them. And you don’t need to say very much with your words, but your energy really needs to say, you’re safe here. You matter to me, and your feelings matter and you’re welcome here, and your feelings are welcome here.

Again, there’s that phrase again. Simple, but not always easy, but it doesn’t take much. I think this is very much something that we can do for each other as men and in the gay community in general.

[00:51:36] Matt Landsiedel: Beautiful answer. I’m there for all of it.

[00:51:39] Michael DiIorio: Yeah, I mean, I know you guys would be.

[00:51:43] Matt Landsiedel: Just even you saying those words. Like, my nervous system felt like, oh, that. Like, right. My nervous system was landing into just even the thought of that. Right. Like having a space where someone’s containing and then they’re teaching other people how to contain, and then you feel contained. Right. It’s, it’s. It really is the definition of a therapeutic or a safe container.

[00:52:03] Michael DiIorio: Well, think of our sharing circles for. For those who’ve been there and all three of us have facilitated these. Like, we do that there and allow people to just show up and share whatever’s on their mind and the rest of them just listen and nod and, you know, we’re listening and. And we’re not. It creates that safety. And then so many people will message after or post. I feel so much better after that. I feel so much more seen, you know, and they love that experience, regardless of what the topic is.

[00:52:27] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, I agree. So, one. I. One thing I want to just reflect is structure. That’s like a big piece of. It is like, that there’s got to be safety, and safety comes through structure, ground rules, these sorts of things. That’s what I’m hearing you say. Yeah, it’s perfect, for sure. Awesome.

[00:52:42] Reno Johnston: Yeah, yeah, I’ll echo that. That structured piece, because I hadn’t really thought of it so much, but I think it’s really powerful. Like, I was thinking of AA heart circles, sharing circles, and I was also thinking of something I’d heard a long time ago about. I think there were indigenous cultures where, like, if someone was unwell in the tribe, like, they would circle around the person and, like, hold space for whatever was coming up. And I think that that can be really beautiful. The other thing is, like, learning and practicing and modeling being a safe space for yourself, and then, like. And then creating safe spaces or. And I want to say. I don’t. I don’t just want to say safe. I want to say, like, brave as well, because there is an element of courage and bravery that is required to create a space like this first within yourself and then to extend that gift out into the world and hold that space for other people and then for those other people to enter into that space. So I think safety is a big thing, but so is bravery, and so is being able to hold yourself in spaces where you’re emoting and expressing. Like, I think that’s important, being held, but also, like, being in the practice of, you know, holding yourself and learning to hold yourself.

I think, honestly, I would say that’s essentially it. Like, there’s. There’s so many spaces where I feel that’s happening. It’s actually, there’s one I want to name too, because I know that sex and sexuality can bring up a lot for people, and there’s a lot of emotionality that comes up in those spaces. And so, like, an example that I hadn’t thought up until just now is, like, some of the workshops that I find myself in around, like, eroticism and sexuality and stuff like that. I’m in this, like, breathing, erotic breathing workshop right now with the. With the body electric. And it’s been really amazing to see how these, like, Breathing practices support what’s happening in the bedroom, but they also extend outward, you know, into how I’m showing up in the rest of my life. So even spaces like that are a great place to be able to, like, feel and deal and heal. Yeah, Love it, love it, love it.

How about you?

[00:55:06] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah, I think there’s a couple of ways you can answer this. You got like the macro and then the micro and I. But I do think the macro is influenced by the micro and the micro is influenced by the macro systems. Right. So I think one of the ways that we can create spaces is by unsubscribing to the old outdated ways of viewing emotionality and emotions and being like, nope, sorry, hitting unsubscribe. I’m no longer going to buy into this thing that emotions make me weak as a man or whatever that might be. So we all have these beliefs, and it’s your choice if you want to continue believing them. Are they serving you? Are these beliefs serving you? So a couple of them for me would be like, there’s a few. So stop apologizing is one for sure. Like, you know, when somebody gets emotional and they’re in a group of people. I’m sorry. I’m so sorry, guys, that I. Right. And it’s like, why are you apologizing? So stop apologizing for your emotions.

They’re beautiful and they are welcome. That’s a big one. And then for people that are. That are in that container and someone’s getting emotional, don’t try and pull them out of it. Don’t try and fix them. Don’t try and cheer them up. Just truly, just be still and with them and let their emotion move through. Right. So there’s things that we can do that are going to, like, they’re little like micro shamings that we do to ourself and that we do to one another when we feel uncomfortable with emotionality. So I think those are. Those are some things. Or again, covering our faces when we’re crying or when we’re laughing. You know, so many people laugh and they go like when they’re in. Like, they’ll hold their hand over their mouth. It’s just funny how human beings, we’ve been conditioned to, like, hide our emotions and things like this. So letting go of some of this stuff. And there’s different places, like what Michael described in Reno, like, there’s certain communities and cultures that are being developed that are going to help us move through some of this conditioning and let it go authentic. Relating is my space. I love it. But there’s so many places that you can find communities that are moving through this stuff. Authentic relating is beautiful because everything’s welcome. That’s the first principle of authentic relating. Welcome. Everything.

So your joy, your sadness, your shame, your fear, your shadows, it’s all welcome. But you can learn how to do it and bring it forth in conscious ways. I think that’s the. That’s the work. And then I think the biggest piece here, too, is, like, feeling our own emotions and doing the work is how we get good at holding space and creating spaces where emotions are safe. Right. If we’re not doing the work here, then we can’t do the work out there. Right. It’s like having a therapist or a coach or somebody that doesn’t process their own emotions and they’re sitting with you trying to teach you how to process emotions. Right. It’s like there’s a disconnect. So you gotta be willing to hold space for yourself so you can hold space for other people. I think that was a big, you know, inspiration for having this episode today is so we can start to, you know, learn how to strengthen our own ability to feel so we can bring that into community and we can, you know, start fostering even more healing in our community, which I think is so essential. We’re at a really pivotal point in our community as gay men where there’s a lot more people doing healing work and becoming healers, which means that we’re spilling out and our community is going through a transformation. And I think it’s beautiful, and I’m very excited to be, you know, just to see more of the. The benefits of that. And I’m. I’m very proud to be a part of that.

[00:58:30] Reno Johnston: Yeah.

[00:58:31] Matt Landsiedel: Amen to that.

Any closing comments from either of you two before we wrap up?

[00:58:36] Reno Johnston: Honestly, just, like, I love you guys.

Like, it’s so. Yeah, it’s so. There we go. It’s so fun that we get to do this. That we get to do this, like, you know, as often as we do. And. And I just love hearing how impacted people are by these conversations. And it gives me hope for our community that we’re talking about things like emotion and emotional intelligence, and we’re, like, leaning into this work. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love. I love you. I love us. I love me, you know, more and more and more every day. And I hope you all listening will too. Yeah. That is my wish for each of us.

[00:59:16] Matt Landsiedel: Yeah. Amen. And I’ll give a special shout out to my fellow brothers who are either neurodivergent or you’re struggling with mental health. Anything where your emotions feel bigger and more intense, shout out to you guys because I know the deep amount of work that goes into learning how to be with emotion and process emotion when your nervous system is structured differently. So much love to to all y’ all.

Okay, well, thank you to you two. Yeah. For coming on and sharing your thoughts and being vulnerable as always.

We can’t understate that because it’s a big deal. It really is a big deal. I know we’re used to it, more used to it now, but it’s a big deal to come on and be vulnerable publicly. So.

And thank you to our listeners and viewers as always, we wouldn’t have this podcast if you weren’t listening to it. So thank you for coming on this journey with us and tuning in every week to be part of our our conversations. And I again, I will reinstate this podcast and YouTube channel or listener and viewer supported. So if you enjoyed what we were creating, you can support us by donating to the show using the link in the show notes or you can tap the thanks button on YouTube and show us some love there.

You can also subscribe to the early access option on Apple Podcasts, where you can listen ad-free and gain access to all of the episodes. Your support helps us continue making content for you and supporting our community. So we do thank you in advance for that and hopefully you can come and join us so we can see your faces and connect with you at one of our Sharing Circles or Connection Circles. For anything GMB, go to gaymensbrotherhood.com. Much love, everybody.