Twinks, Jocks, and Bears, Oh My! The Obsession with Gay Labels

Michael DiIorio (00:01)

Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men’s Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I’m your host, Michael DiIorio, and joining me today is Matt Landsiedell. Before we jump into today’s episode, guys, we’re doing something a little new today, and I want to just give you a brief explanation of what’s going on. ⁓ We’re going to try out a shorter, more organic conversation where

Matt and I pick a topic that feels alive for us in the moment, and we’re just going to talk about it without any outline or agenda or preset questions like we normally do. So it’s still gay men going deeper. We’re still gay men. We’re still going deeper. But maybe you can consider these shorter episodes just the tip, if that helps. You’re still going to get our regular episode deep dives with Reno and with Matt and I. So that’s still happening. Don’t worry. We just want to give you guys a little more of a spontaneous combo where you get a bit more a behind the scenes of our work and our lives. So that’s what we’re doing today. All right, let’s get into it. Our very first topic, I wanted to talk about gay labels. If we use them, why or why not? And unpacking our overall thoughts on this. I think it’s an obsession that sometimes we have with gay labels ⁓ and how they impact our identity, dating, confidence, and sexuality. So first burning question for you, Matt.

What gay labels do you identify with? Either previously, historically, or today, if any.

Matt Landsiedel (01:34)

Hmm, gay labels.

I would say…

I don’t know, actually, because I don’t really identify with many now that I think about it. Are you talking about labels in the sense of identity or are you talking about labels in the sense of sexual preferences, like these sorts of

Michael DiIorio (01:58)

do identity.

Things like daddies, jocks, bears, twinks, of those things. There’s so many now. Those are the main ones. we can start with that.

Matt Landsiedel (02:12)

⁓ is mystic.

Michael DiIorio (02:15)

It should be a more popular one in my opinion.

Matt Landsiedel (02:17)

Yeah.

Yeah. I used to be a jock. would say I used to see myself as a jock. ⁓ And I really, I appreciated that, but I haven’t really been jocky for the last six years. And I feel like, I don’t know, maybe my, identity is more like the spiritual one or the, ⁓ the earth, earthy kind of guy, you know, like people always describe me as like a more granola. ⁓

those sorts of things. ⁓ Definitely not bear, not daddy, not cub, not twink. What’s a twonk?

Michael DiIorio (02:56)

It’s like a hunky twink. A twink is normally pretty slender, but twonk is a bit more muscular. It’s like a dog. And then there’s the twas, which is a twink that is now older. And so he’s a twas. ⁓

Matt Landsiedel (03:02)

Okay.

That was. ⁓ Yeah, I would say probably those would be the ones I identify with. But again, I don’t really identify with them as much. It’s more so I just kind of see myself as Matt now, right? I kind of done a lot of work on shedding a lot of these labels because I found that they were like holding me back.

Michael DiIorio (03:31)

Yeah, that’s interesting. think a lot of people will say that. reason I picked this topic is because we just had a, ⁓ I do an alumni event every couple of months with my former clients and former group participants. And we had an alumni session this last week and we just kind of got into this topic about gay labels. And I like jotted it down and like, we need to talk about this because everyone got really fired up about it, right? Some people like you felt like it was holding them back and they didn’t like it. And it just, they felt like they were put in a box and other people really felt a sense of

pride identifying with whatever label like the bear community, for example. And that didn’t give them any sense of feeling like it was in a box. was like a label in a good way, right? ⁓

Matt Landsiedel (04:12)

Yeah, and I agree. think there’s pros and cons. If you think about when people say the gay community, I don’t know if it’s really a community. I think it’s a population. And then we create communities within the population, right? So I’m not really a big fan. I know it’s so mainstream that I have to use it because I’m not going to say the gay population, but it really is more of just a population of people. It’s millions and millions of people. we all, so the labels is where we can start to subdivide and be like, yeah, I’m a bear or I’m a this or I’m a that.

I find so much benefit in labels like, I’ve identified with, you know, things like neurodivergent or highly sensitive or empathic, demisexual. Like these are all the ones that I represent. ⁓ But I’ve never really grabbed onto a lot of the ones around being gay ⁓ because I feel like I’ve never, guess, jock probably, but that doesn’t necessarily have to just be within the gay spectrum. think it could be anybody could see themselves as a jock if they were athletic or whatever.

But yeah, I’m curious for you, what are the benefits? Well, actually, no, I want to know what you identify with first.

Michael DiIorio (05:19)

Um, probably jock as well, although that’s shocking for me to think that I would ever be that like if I, if my little boy Michael heard this, like, if anyone has seen me play sports, you know that I’m not a jock, but it’s more so the look, the look that I would wear, like the kinds of things I wear were sporty, sporty gear. Um, and yes, I do like to go to the gym, but, um, yeah, I would say that one. And I would say lately I’m getting into my daddy, daddy vibe. Um, I mean, I’m 42, so I think I.

I’ve earned that. least in some ways. And I don’t mind it. think, you know, people call me daddy and like, yeah, bring it. Like that doesn’t make me feel any which way. I kind of like it actually. ⁓ So those two probably, and then, know, when I was younger, I would say the boy next door. I was always that like boy next door, like cute little preppy Abercrombie guy. Yeah.

Matt Landsiedel (06:11)

Yeah, I can see that with you. I like that. I’m usually attracted to boy next door kind of guys. Just like humble and like, you know, they’re not like, yeah, there’s just something about the boy next door energy that I’m really drawn to or even kind of geeky. I’ve said that in previous episodes for I geeky and freaky. That’s a really nice mix. A guy that’s kind of geeky. You would never suspect that he would be like sexual and like have this prowess or this, you know, this energy, but yet he surprises you in the bedroom. I kind of, I kind of like that.

Michael DiIorio (06:41)

Yeah, I love that as well. on apps like all the apps, I shouldn’t say all the apps, Grindr for sure. I don’t know about the other ones, but they do have that where you can like search, your grid by all these tags and labels. And there are so many more than the ones we’ve named here. There’s tons. And I think that can be limiting. I don’t do that personally. Like I don’t look for only jocks or only whatever it is.

But I do think in some ways it can be limiting. I think the answer of course is both to that question. Personally to me, it does not limit me at all. But I think I get to choose my usage of labels and when they suit me, great. But if not, I don’t get too fussed. And even if people mislabeled me as something, I really don’t care. I’m like, sure, whatever you want to think.

Matt Landsiedel (07:33)

Yeah. What makes somebody identify with labels? you think, do you think it’s like how they look or how they behave their lifestyle? what are the things that make people say like, Oh, I’m a bear or I’m a whatever.

Michael DiIorio (07:47)

I think looks is the main thing because that’s how we just look at somebody. don’t even know how they live or how they act necessarily, but we look at them and if we can kind of say, you know, look at that bear over there. Like, you know exactly what kind of person I’m talking about or look at that twink over there. Like I don’t even need to describe for you, you know, you know the features. So I think that’s the primary thing. And when it comes to those like main gay labels. ⁓ And I think that especially with the bear community, I’m going to say, I’m not a bear, I’m speaking on behalf of all bears out there. Please, please let us know the comments, but.

I think that they, first of all, when I have spent time with bears, I have the most amazing time. They’re super fun. very, just, they’re just a good time. ⁓ And I think that there is a great sense of pride in the community. Like they have their own flag, they have their own colors, they have their own events, they have their own bars. And so I think, know, shout out to all the bears out there. I think that they’ve done a really good job making a label work for them. Yeah. In a positive way. Yeah.

Matt Landsiedel (08:44)

Yeah, and it’s a very inclusive, well, I’ve never been in the community, but from the outside looking in, it’s, it’s seemed like a very inclusive community. Yeah.

Michael DiIorio (08:56)

Yeah. Have you ever wanted to be part of a label and just were part of a community or a subset and just felt like you couldn’t, you you didn’t belong?

Matt Landsiedel (09:11)

Hmm

Think so, not off the top of my head. ⁓

Yeah, no, I don’t think so. You?

Michael DiIorio (09:23)

Yeah, jock. I always talk. Oh yeah, for sure. If I had such a crush on them as a kid, I was like, oh my God, I want to fuck them and I want to be them. yeah, and then, you know, eventually I guess I did it. Check.

Matt Landsiedel (09:39)

What are the benefits, ⁓ from your opinion, what are the benefits of being, or of labels?

Michael DiIorio (09:50)

Well, like the bear population, think that it does give them, in the gay community, belonging is a big issue. We talk about that a lot. And I think that in a sense, it gives people a niche. gives people a subset. gives people their tribe, their folks, their fellow people that they can easily connect with. And I think that if you walk into a big room, you just see your people all of a sudden, it’s like, oh, I feel safer. My nerves are on. And I think that can help.

⁓ like in that sense now what I shadow the flip of that is when it becomes insulated, when you become insulated in that community too much and you think that, you know, everyone else sucks or is not as good or you just stop interacting with other people. So one thing to find your camaraderie and a safe space within that subset, but at the same time, not completely isolate yourself from everybody else.

Matt Landsiedel (10:46)

Yeah, yeah, there’s it’s an interesting debate because, you know, when you look at exclusive communities, it’s like, you know, even in our in our community, we’ve had people be like, well, why is there not more content for trans men? And why is there no not more use of the word queer and these sorts of things? And we do get this feedback. I wouldn’t say often, but it happens. ⁓

And there’s something to be said about exclusive communities in the sense that this is a corner that we’ve niched out where, you the content is created by gay men for gay men. And it’s like people who identify with this label. And I think we can, if we try and be too inclusive, ⁓ then we dilute like the sense of belonging to the group that we identify with. Right. And I think the LGBTQ community has done that a little bit where they’ve like, just like let anyone and everyone into this pool.

And that’s where I think we now we have so much subdividing and we got to go into these little pools because it’s like, well, we still want to be able to identify with the labels and the identities that actually we resonate with. You know what I mean? Cause it’s, ⁓ and I’m all for inclusion. I’m not saying that inclusion is a, is a bad thing by any means. think inclusion is a, is a beautiful thing, but when we become too inclusive, it can dilute, ⁓ maybe the mission or the vision of, ⁓ a particular sub community, right?

Michael DiIorio (12:06)

There is a book I read and I wish I was at home. I would pull it off my shelf. It’s by, I think, Priya Parker. I may have mentioned it before, but it’s basically about the power of exclusion in creating belonging. And so it’s very purposeful, intentional exclusion. So we are creating, like in the Game of Brotherhood, a safe space for gay, bi, and queer identifying men for a very particular reason that it’s specifically for that. And that can be a good thing.

And so I think people can, especially in today’s world, misunderstand that exclusion as us not being, I mean, it is exclusionary, but it’s done with a very solid purpose. And I think that’s okay. I think that’s very, very much okay. Yeah. Again, not to the point where it is the be all and end all, but this is our community. We made it for this reason, for these people, and we are serving these people. We’re not here to serve everybody. And if you don’t like it, that’s fine. Go find the next one.

Matt Landsiedel (13:04)

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I just had a thought and actually it’s quite a common label that we get in the gay community. And I never even thought about this, but mask. Masculine. That’s totally a label that we put on. And that is one that I identified with hardcore. Cause I was just thinking, I’m like, what are the downsides ⁓ to labels? And one of them for me has been, it boxes me in. creates concept of self.

And then we might have a hard time breaking out of that. And for me, ⁓ my, my concept was masculine, jock, and then I would immediately be lumping myself and also by others be lumped into top energy. Right. And that’s not necessarily who I am. And I feel like, so a lot of my concepts started to shift over the years and I started to become more connected with my feminine and I started to be interested more in bottoming and I start, right. So these sorts of things started to shift for me.

And it was, it was a grieving that I had to go through to let go of these labels because they weren’t who I was anymore, especially the jock one, because, you know, I had all these injuries. did my fitness competitions and I was very much, my self concept was like, you are the fit guy. ⁓ and then I started to change. My body started to change and I had to kind of almost grab onto something new, which was kind of, I guess I’m, I’m still in that, but I don’t want to grab onto anything. So I do feel a little bit almost like nomadic.

in my identity. Like I’m not really landing on anything, other than like what I’ve already said, like demisexual and this and that, as far as like things that I actually take on for a full on identity, I don’t, I don’t, I think I’m trying to be identity lists, label lists in a way.

Michael DiIorio (14:44)

Yeah.

I think for me, I’ve always really enjoyed subverting those things. And so I actually get a kick out of when people see me as something and then I just completely blow their mind about being something else. I love it. I do. And so I kind of have fun with it. ⁓ So yeah, I haven’t had that, but I get what you mean. Like in terms of the identifying, like a label that identifies you and then all of sudden it’s like a twink.

Like you can be a twink and have all this identity attached to being a twink and then all of sudden you age and there is a grieving process. It’s like, wait a minute, like I’m not that cute twink anymore. I’m a 40 year old man and those things just don’t hit the same anymore. And so think people kind of have that same identity crisis almost as they shift out of identities. But it’s also the same for people who were married and who are no longer married, people who worked at a certain

place for like 25 years and now they don’t. ⁓ So it’s the same thing. Identity can come from all kinds of labels.

Matt Landsiedel (15:54)

Yeah. Yeah. And we did that episode on reinventing yourself. And I think that’s a good episode to follow up with this stuff. If you are finding that, you know, your labels are just something that you’re wanting to start to shed and let go of and stepping into a new version of yourself reinventing yourself as a, as a rebirth thing process of like, yeah, shedding, grieving, letting go of who you were. So you could become who you want to be, I guess.

Michael DiIorio (16:17)

Yeah.

Yeah. And that takes time. like my, my label in that episode, talked about going from like a nine to five employee to like a entrepreneur. And that was really weird because I’m like, I’m not an entrepreneur. What the fuck do I know about entrepreneurship? And, and I, it felt weird. It felt like putting on a new pair of shoes. Yeah. That’s what I wanted. I wanted, I wanted to wear these shoes. And so you have to go through those awkward bits if it’s something that you really want. Yeah. And let go of the old thing too, which is not.

not so easy because your ego really wants to hold on to what it already knows and what it already feels safe with even if it’s not good for you or even if it doesn’t suit you anymore.

Matt Landsiedel (16:56)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

Something else is coming through. This conversation is stimulating me more than I thought. But being the helper healer guy in the gay community, there’s a part of me that I limit myself in certain ways that I show up. I kind of feel like I have to be more serious or I have to be more… I can’t be promiscuous or I can’t be these things because I have to be the guy that’s the helper, the healer, the therapist dude. ⁓ So I do know that that boxes me in a little bit because, for example, when I went to Amsterdam, I let go of that for

five days and I was the wild Matt. Wild Matt came out and I was like, Whoa, I haven’t experienced wild Matt in like probably since my early or my late twenties. Right. So I’m like, okay. So I think when I travel, I’m able to let go of labels and identities a lot easier and I can just be whoever because I’m out of routine. I’m not around the people who might be like, wait a minute. Why are you acting like this? Right? No one, when I’m traveling, no one knows how I act. Right. ⁓

So yeah, it’s fascinating.

Michael DiIorio (18:01)

Whereas I just enjoy it. I love when people say that. I get such a kick out of it. Like, that’s not who I thought you were. I’m like, yep, that’s right.

Matt Landsiedel (18:08)

Yeah, it’s the power of the Gemini. We can shape shift very quickly. Yeah.

Michael DiIorio (18:12)

Yeah, totally. When I was talking about this with my ⁓ graduates, I call them my alumni, there was a few people who thought that it was actually very unhelpful. And I thought that we need to just completely dispose of them altogether because their rationale was that it boxes people in, they don’t fit in today’s world anymore, we don’t need them. So I’m curious what you see are like the negative.

repercussions of these labels that the gay culture has, for whatever reason, really seemed to take to.

Matt Landsiedel (18:49)

Yeah, I would say those people might be like similar to me. They might be struggling with feeling boxed in, or they might be struggling with feeling like they don’t belong. Right. Because maybe they haven’t come to a place in their life where they, they feel like they fully know who they are. Right. So I feel like when we start coming into knowing who we are, we are able to say, okay, I am here, I’m here, I’m here. Right. So we either place ourselves as we get older or as we get older, we start to just shed shit and start to let go. I’m just like, I don’t need to. Right. So.

It’s all, it’s all dependent on the person and what they’re needing. So I think they’re the negatives can be, yeah, it boxes you in. think it creates exclusion. think it, it makes it, it makes people become like self fulfilling of their limitations or their fulfillment, like fulfillment or potential or whatever. Right. But it’s like, I have to be this because everyone else around me is being like this. It’s like, ⁓ for a good example is the gay culture in general. It’s like in order to be.

You know, your currency as a gay man is to be muscular, you know, party, to do all these things. And then we feel like if we’re not that, then we have to feel inadequate or that we don’t measure up. Right. So I can see how it can be destructive as well. ⁓

Michael DiIorio (20:03)

that’s it. You just nailed it for me. It is because I don’t subscribe to that. And I’ve kind of like let that go completely. I think because I have such a my sense of self is purely like here in here. That’s why I was saying earlier, people can label me whatever they want. It literally does nothing. I’m like, okay, like, I don’t need to fight with you. I don’t need to, I’ll just let you leave with me, whatever. But I think you nailed it because I’ve done that work. And

Yeah, I don’t need to prove anything. so, like sometimes I’m masked, sometimes I’m not, sometimes I’m a job, sometimes I’m not, sometimes I’m a daddy, sometimes I’m not. And I think that’s true for all of us. think it’s just sometimes we’re in it, sometimes we’re not. And when we try to like always fit this thing, that’s the part that’s limiting is this homelessness. And I just love to play and dance in all ends of life. The messy bits and the magical bits and all these labels. But I think that

If you’re one of those people out there who has a hard time with these labels, maybe what Matt said is something you need to rewind and listen to again. That might be your work.

Matt Landsiedel (21:11)

Yeah. Come to think of it, you know, I don’t even know if it’s possible to be label-less because what that means is that we would be identity-less and the way the human being works is we have an ego, our ego grabs onto concepts and identities and we form who we are. So maybe it’s not about taking them away. Maybe it’s about identifying with more. Right? So instead of saying I’m mask, what if you identified with mask and femme?

and you played with both of them, As opposed to, so it’s more so about playing with the binary as opposed to falling on one side of the binary, right? It’s like, cause that’s really how it’s been for me. I’m like, now that I think about it, I’m like, no, like I haven’t actually shed my identity and become this, this nothingness. I’ve actually taken on more identities and played with more costumes and more masks and more things. And that’s what’s given me a greater sense of liberation.

Michael DiIorio (22:05)

Yeah. And the other piece of it is, is you don’t have to identify with all of the traits of that thing, whatever those attributes are, all those characteristics. And the example I use is, you you and I, Matt, are Canadian and people have this idea of what Canadians are like. Some of those I fit, other ones I don’t. And that doesn’t make me any less Canadian. You don’t see me questioning my Canadian-ness. It’s like, no, I’m Canadian. I’m just not that kind of Canadian. I’m not the lumberjack.

don’t play hockey. I hate the fucking snow. I’m not that kind of guy. I’m this kind of Canadian over here. ⁓ And so like when you look at it in that sense, it’s almost like, okay, yeah, there’s like, there’s room to breathe in these in these labels.

Matt Landsiedel (22:46)

Yeah, yeah, I like that. It’s like malleable. Make the label malleable and don’t be so rigid with identifying with it and within the scope of it, but also within just that label alone, like hop into other labels that I think can help ⁓ thicken up who you are.

Michael DiIorio (23:04)

Take what resonates, love it, identify with it, own it, and leave the rest. That does not make you a problem. It does not make you less than if you don’t necessarily relate with all of that particular label. Like the mask one is a one. Sometimes I mask, sometimes I’m not. That has nothing to do with my sense of worth or confidence though, like zero. They’re just labels. just, I can identify with it sometimes and not always, but it’s separate from my internal worthiness.

Matt Landsiedel (23:34)

Yeah, exactly. And we don’t have to look the part either. if we stopped like looking in the mirror and being like, well, I don’t really look like a bear, so I can’t be a bear or I don’t look that mask. I can’t be masked. It’s like, well, no, sometimes when we identify with things as labels, we can also identify them through an energy. And energetics can also play a role in this too. It doesn’t just have to be appearance.

So play with the energy of what it’s like to be masculine or what it’s like to be, you know, burly, these sorts of things. And it doesn’t have to just be how we look. I know people are going to have a hard time wrapping their head around that concept because we’re so looks driven in our culture, but you know, behind closed doors, you can start playing around with the energies of these things. And then hopefully one day you find courage to bring that energy out into the world and share it with people.

Michael DiIorio (24:24)

And I think that, you know, I’m going to give Gen, what is it? Gen Z and Gen Alpha some credit here, which I don’t often do, but I think they’ve done a really good job of, again, being sub-submersive, sub-subversive, which is what I like to do. But they just, you know, and I think it’s great. I think it’s wonderful. I love it. I’m all for it. I love seeing younger folks, mostly younger folks, just take these things and completely flip them on their head. And I think it’s great. And I think we need more of it. So.

The more we do that, I think the more we get to what you’re saying. We just need examples of it. And what I find is people have that natural tendency. Like they’ll say like behind closed doors, this is what I want to do, but I would never do that out loud or I would never actually put that out there. And I’m like, no, no, that’s what we need. We need examples of people having the courage to express themselves in their most genuine expression.

And that might be a little bit of this and a little bit of that and a little bit of this. And then you own that all and you make this beautiful suit of an identity. And then it gives other people permission to do the same.

Matt Landsiedel (25:27)

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael DiIorio (25:29)

Take

those labels and make a fucking quilt.

Matt Landsiedel (25:32)

Exactly. love how our minds were just going there. You’re like, you’re going to a quilt. And I said, what kind of soup would yours be?

Michael DiIorio (25:39)

God. That’s a lot. It’s a lot of flavor in my soup.

Matt Landsiedel (25:45)

Yeah, I love it.

Michael DiIorio (25:50)

⁓ Another thing is the straight folks out there, I know we have some straight listeners, I think they get such a kick out of our, the gay labels. Like I get my, you know, my family asking me like, what’s up, bear? Like, are you an otter? ⁓ Those kinds of things. And it’s true because I don’t see, mean, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t see any other kind of like subsets of like the world that they’re who have this, these archetypes that are so built into the fabric of their culture. I think it’s just.

I think it’s just the gays that do this.

Matt Landsiedel (26:20)

Yeah, yeah. I would be, not an otter, I’d be a wolf, I think. I’d be a friendly wolf. I don’t know, I just, that’s the vision I get of myself. or like a golden retriever or something like that. Like, I just, I’m not an otter, I don’t think. I feel like a wolf is just maybe like a guy that’s hairy, but he’s not like an otter.

Michael DiIorio (26:26)

What’s a wolf?

Yeah, there is a wolf category tag. I’ve seen them. just don’t…

Matt Landsiedel (26:45)

Perfect.

Well, then I’m not. I’ll be that. I’ll be a wolf.

Michael DiIorio (26:48)

Everyone out there, enlighten us. If you are listening to us, please write in the comments. Tell us what a wolf is.

Matt Landsiedel (26:53)

Yeah, and tell us what labels you identify with I want to know yes

Michael DiIorio (26:58)

And whether you think they are helpful or hindering to your sense of identity and belonging. All right, Matt, any last words?

No, no. Yeah, that was great. That was a fun little first shot at our spontaneous conversation here. We had no agenda guys. We just popped on the camera and started talking. So if you want us to keep doing these, if you like this kind of format, let us know. Feel free also to let us know what topics you’d like to hear from us, because that’s fun too. And as always, everything that we do in the Gay Men’s Brotherhood, our events, our courses, ⁓ our coaching, counseling, and men’s groups are all in the show notes. So if you want to go deeper with us.

Matt Landsiedel (27:10)

Fun. Yeah.

Michael DiIorio (27:37)

That’s where you can find us. All right, guys. Have a good one.