Open and Closed Relationships (Vol. 2)

Hello everyone. And welcome to gay men going deeper. This is a podcast where we talk about personal development, mental health, and sexuality. Your hosts today are Matt Landsiedel, Calan Breckon and myself, Michael DiIorio. Collectively we have over 40 years of experience in the personal development world. And if this is your first time listening to us, we’d like to welcome you to the show.

We each have our own coaching practice. And in this podcast, we’re giving away all of our best stuff today. We’re going to be talking about open and closed relationships. So we’ll be answering questions such as what is the ideal relationship structure for you? How do you handle jealousy in your relationships, which of your needs do you expect your primary partner to meet and which needs can be met outside of the relationship?

And finally, as we do, we’ll leave you guys with some tips for anyone who is trying to decide which relationship structure works for them. First, I got a couple of housekeeping items to get to, so we will be continuing these discussions on the last Thursday of the month. So we host a zoom hangout. This is where we give you guys the viewers and listeners,

a chance to share your own thoughts on the topics we discussed here on the podcast. So join the gay men’s brotherhood Facebook group, and check out the events tab and RSVP to the events. There, there are two times for you to choose from also this podcast and YouTube channel is listener and viewer supported. So if you’re enjoying these episodes and you want to show us some love,

head over to our Patreon page in the show notes, where you can support the show, we’ll even send you a t-shirt as a thank you. And you can subscribe to get early access to these episodes on apple podcasts. So all of your support helps us continue making content for you and supporting our community. And we thank you in advance. Also, please check out the seven day trial and the gay men going deeper membership.

If you’re curious about joining now is the time to do it. The membership includes two courses, healing your shame and building better relationships over 35 coaching videos, monthly zoom calls. So if you’ve been waiting to go deeper with your personal development, we invite you to come and join us and go to gay men, going deeper.com to register. And before we jump into today’s topic,

I want to re read a review from one of our viewers on YouTube. This comes from Callum Finley on the YouTube video called spirituality. He says, personally, I don’t have any spiritual or religious beliefs, but I enjoyed listening to this episode. It was really interesting to hear some of the ways that spirituality can feel for different people. I hope it continues to bring happiness peace and meaning into our lives.

So thank you Callum for sharing that and for watching and listening to that episode, even though you don’t have any spiritual or religious beliefs, I think it’s important that I shared that because you know, we do cover a lot of different topics here on this podcast. And that’s one of the things I love about this podcast, but some of which might seem relevant to some people and not so relevant to others.

But this goes to show Callum has shown us here that with an open mind, you can still learn and enjoy the podcasts and gather a fresh perspective from it. Even if that episode topic isn’t necessarily your thing, which is a great segue into today’s topic. I had a feeling that’s what you were doing. I was like, I see what you’re doing.

You all know me? I like to curate a lovely experience. So yes, this is a great segue. So the discussion of open and closed relationships do tend to get a lot of people riled up myself included sometimes. So in the gay men’s brotherhood group in the Facebook group, we see a lot of people get worked up about this, which you know,

will we see as the producers, a lot of shame and a lot of judgment on all sides on every side. And so, you know, to, if you’re not in the Facebook group to illustrate this, just go to our YouTube comments section on any of the previous episodes we did on open relationships and have a read. You’ll see what I mean,

specifically, we have three episodes that are specific to this. This topic. One was episode six, which guys was two years ago. So I’m happy. We’re getting a chance to talk about it again. Then there’s episode 44, where we talked specifically about non-monogamous relationships and then episode 50, where Craig Cassie and I answered questions about non-monogamy. So go check those out.

But our goal here today on this episode is to bring some balance to a very heated debate. And we’re not, we’re going to be coming to you today from a place of curiosity, not condemnation. And this is not an attempt to convince anyone that one particular relationship structure is better or worse than the other. That’s not what we’re doing here today. Okay.

And I will acknowledge a little bit of my own bias here before we jump in. This is a very personal episode for me because for the last year or so, I’ve been navigating my way through openness with my partner. So it’s very alive for me today and regular listeners of the podcast know that it’s an active journey I want. So I’m looking forward to sharing a little bit more of that with you guys here today.

Okay. So I want to start off by offering a bit of a framework for today’s discussion about relationship structures. So like sexual orientation, like gender identity, it exists on a spectrum and already I’ve probably upset some people by saying that, so these relationship structures exist on a spectrum and they’re all, all relationships are unique and different in their own way, but this is just again for illustrative purposes.

So generally speaking on the spectrum on one end over here, we have traditional monogamy. So this is two people limited to two who are romantically emotionally and sexually committed only to each other. Okay. We all know that one, then over here along the spectrum comes, you know, monogamish or monogamy most of the time. So it’s mostly monogamous, but sometimes there’s a little room to play.

And then as we move further along, the spectrum is the entire giant beast that is called openness or consensual non-monogamy. I use those two terms, interchangeably, openness, just easier. So this includes two or more partners, and there are hundreds, if not thousands of ways to have an open relationship, we don’t need to talk about that here, go to one of the older episodes where we ducked into that more detail,

but openness also includes polyamory, which is having multiple romantic relationships simultaneously with the consent and knowledge of all parties involved. And then at the very end of the spectrum on the other side is what is called a relationship anarchy. And this basically says that all forms of intimacy are valid and it does not prioritize romantic relationships over any kind of relationship. So basically removes the distinction between partner and non partner.

So like any spectrum, you can move along it, right? It’s not one or the other. There’s a lovely mushy middle where you will probably find yourself and these preferences are fluid, right? They can change for you individually as they have for me over time. And they can change even within the confines of a relationship, the relationship could go from closed to open and then back to closed again.

And that’s all perfectly natural because our desires change right. As we grow, as we have new experiences, as we have new needs, as we do personal development work, our desires change, and then our boundaries can shift to change with them. So at the end of the day, what I want you to know is that wherever you are in the spectrum,

you can have a happy, healthy, thriving relationship, regardless of where it is on that spectrum. And people are going to have a lot of opinions about that. And I invite you to have them, my opinion for the record is that what makes any relationship successful, whether it’s open or traditionally monogamous is the same things that make all relationships successful. So for me,

that’s effective communication, including listening, a commitment to trust, vulnerability, commitment, to growing together, empathy, understanding your partner, not judging them and especially knowing who you are, knowing what you want, and then being able to express that. Okay, now that I got that out of my system, I want to turn it over to you guys.

So I want to hear from our co-hosts today, the first question is what is the ideal relationship structure for you? And I want to start with Callan today Being straight up and honest. I don’t know. I don’t know what, like my ideal relationship structure is. It’s been a while since I’ve actually like genuinely been in like a long-term relationship of any sort.

I’ve kind of dabbled since moving back to Canada in 2019, like I’ve dated a couple of people and that was enjoyable, but I think my dating and relationship understandings evolved as I got older. So first I’m going to define like what my definition of relationships are. So for me, if, if we’re just starting to get to know each other, that to me is you are dating,

you’re dating, you’re getting to know each other. There’s no strings, there’s nothing that’s connecting anybody yet until that kind of conversation happens. And then, you know, maybe you move a little bit longer down that, and then you go into like the relationship territory where it’s like, okay, we’re, you know, we either have a committed to understanding or we are full-blown in a relationship.

And then you discuss what that means. So I’ve only been in the dating world for the last couple of years because I find that I used to want to just jump straight into a relationship with somebody. And it was like full of balls to the walls. Like this is it. But that was much younger, kind of like when everybody has a lot more energy for it,

or like they haven’t had the experiences you had as you get older. And now as I’ve gotten older, I’m like, okay, maybe I’d prefer, I prefer to really get to know somebody over a long period of time before I really commit to more of that relationship kind of energy. So the ideal relationship structure for me, I think I just need to do a little bit more of getting into one before I can really define it,

but I think I’m really happy in myself in regards to like dating other people. I don’t think I need to date a lot of other people or be in an open relationship right away. I think for me, I would want to have a very close relationship to start with and then really build that solid foundation of trust because I think there is a timeframe that it takes to build that and it to be different for everybody.

It could be a couple of months for some, it could be years for others, but for me, I think I would really want to build that solid structure and foundation first, but still go into the relationship. Having had conversations around like, you know, we should be able to have these conversations at some point whenever they feel like, feel appropriate to come up or whenever you’re feeling it so that the doors open to talk about it.

But so that, you know, later on, it’s not like turns into a cheating thing, but so yeah, that’s kind of where my structure is. My brain is all over the map today. I’m like, not quite here, like talking of like, I’m talking absolute nonsense today, but yeah, I think close to start off for sure. And then eventually I could be into the open thing.

Like it doesn’t upset me cause I’m not a very jealous person, but I think it’s more about, you know, communication and you know, the rules of the playing fields. But I just need to get into a relationship to be able to understand that, cause I might get there and be like, oh no, no, no, no, this,

I don’t want that because I don’t, you know, you don’t know what you don’t know, but that’s why I always encourage people to approach life with curiosity. Don’t just judge. And just assume that that’s the way you feel because that’s the way you were raised or that’s what understanding you have. But you know, let yourself be curious and have ideas for yourself and then whatever feels right to you navigate that and then unpack that and communicate,

communicate is the number one thing. So yeah. What about UMAT? You made total sense. Yeah. A girl over here then the conversation’s over there. No, you’re good, but that’s, I think that’s part of navigating and I think that’s, that’s the, the, the true in the present moment, embodiment of how defining your relationship structure. It is very disorganized and I experienced the same.

So I want to maybe just start off by, by talking a bit about my history, my relationship history, the very first long-term relationship I was in was eight years and four of those years we were closed. And then the last four we were open. So I have been in a long-term open relationship. That one was navigated a little differently though, than traditionally help people navigate it.

We, it was don’t ask, don’t tell it was just very much we didn’t, we didn’t talk about it. And it was, yeah. And it seemed to work for us. Right. So we didn’t really ever want to know what was going on. We didn’t talk about the people we were relating with. It was purely sexual. There was no element of emotionality involved.

Some of that might be why it worked without, you know, having to talk about it because it was basically just, we were meeting our needs. That was all, that was a long time ago. So I’ve gone from monogamy to open within that relationship. And then monogamy, monogamy, monogamy, monogamy. Those are my last five relationships. I have done a ton of work on my attachment style.

I’ve had an insecure attachment style most of my life. And I’ve really worked hard at developing a secure attachment. And I feel, I don’t know, like maybe 80% secure, I still can get activated with an insecure attachment, but I feel like I’ve done, you know, a majority of the work that I needed to do to be able to operate within monogamy or non-monogamy really,

to be honest, I really appreciate both. They both offer something very different. No one really puts places, a lot of emphasis on freedom, which I would say out of all the things in the world, that is the number one thing I value the most. So the part of me that really desires openness would be motivated by freedom. Monogamy. I think for me,

embodies devotion and commitment and, and safety almost. There’s an element of safety there that I really appreciate because I don’t have to worry about moving through some of the stuff that would come in and open container, which can be really heavy and really intense. So I would say where I’m at in my life right now, freedom is at the forefront. I’m feeling extremely secure in myself and I have a real strong pull towards variety and towards experiencing and towards making,

making love the main intention of my life. Right. And I kind of almost there’s that element when you were talking about relationship anarchy, Michael there’s, there’s a part of me that really appreciates that as well, because there’s this, this notion that relationships are all important and relationships all have something to teach us in relationship intimacy can be experienced with all. And I really do like that.

So yeah, I would say, you know, I’m, I’m very open. There’s just a really strong openness to me right now that I’m really willing to explore all relationship containers and see what they have to teach me. And I’m very also spiritually motivated when it comes to relationships like I’m, I’m intuitively guided, I’m spiritually motivated by everything comes back to what is this relationship providing for me in the sense of my growth and my evolution.

And if a relationship has continuing to meet needs for me in that respect, I will continue to pursue that relationship. As soon as the relationship becomes stagnant. For me, it’s, it’s, it’s usually a sign and not always, but it’s usually a sign that that relationship has served its purpose and, and, you know, and then you can move on from that relationship.

Or maybe you have to start to revive the relationship. And I think for me, in my monogamous relationships, that’s something that I had to get really good at because you’re in an open relationship that variety can keep you stimulated, but in a monogamous relationship, it can also become a little bit stagnant. So that revival and kind of that shedding the skin that the snake does,

it’s very similar to a monogamous relationship in my opinion, and, and to a certain degree, all relationships, but I found it most prevalent and in my monogamous relationships. So yeah, I’m on the same as you Cal and like, I, I really could go either way. It depends on the person. And I think I’ll say that I’ll finish off with saying that’s the level of security and the relationship is really important too,

because what I want to be in an open relationship, if I, or my partner was extremely jealous, extremely insecure, it’s going to make it really challenging. Right. And that’s not to say to judge that person because we’re all where we’re at in our journey and never be, has insecurity and jealousy. And I think, but when it’s too much and the person hasn’t done their work,

it’s, it’s almost impossible. You’re going to, it’s going to be loaded with, with all sorts of intensities and conflicts. And so I would probably say if my level of security was low in the relationship, I would want to keep it monogamous. And if it, if it wasn’t, I would say I’d be more open to exploring What I’m getting from.

Both of you guys is this open to be open. It’s like open to it, which is nice. It’s a really nice energy to be in because you can kind of take a wherever it goes organically, energetically and where you are at, where your partner might be at. So that’s, I think that’s probably a more useful place to come at it from instead of being rigidly.

Like, no, no, I will not do that. Or I have to have this. So for me, I guess the cat’s out of the bag, I’m in an open relationship. So luckily this is the ideal structure for me. I think, I think the work has been for us is, is what does that mean? Right. So I said,

there’s like hundreds, if not thousands of ways to have an open relationship. So now the work has, okay, where, where do we fall on that? Where is that sweet spot, finding that sweet spot that works for both of us, we’re both of our boundaries are, are respected and how we want to structure it. And it’s, it’s always a progress.

It’s an evolution, but I am happy to report that over time. We’ve really landed in a nice space where we’ve learned a lot about ourselves in the process about each other in the process, of course, there’s still issues that pop up, but, you know, or having a more fun with it than we did, let’s say at the very beginning,

when we were first starting to navigate it, because, you know, I’m like, yo man, this was my very first time having these conversations and having to navigate it. So, and his as well. So we’ve both never done this before. Connor just messily going on this journey together. But after we did a lot of that work through fears,

both of our fears, I came up, you know, the, how do we do this? A lot of communicating, a lot of communicating about it. Now we’re finally in a place for a bit more relaxed and having more fun. So I’m happy to report that. And you know what I’m going to say to this makes him very special, sweet compared to,

you know, other relationships I’ve had. And, and I was a serial monogamous. I came out of the age of 19 and I had five long-term relationships, mostly in a row, all of them, several years each. So what makes star special amongst other things, but is that I’ve never had to, I’ve never gotten to experience this kind of thing,

like creating our, our relationship container for us. I’ve never had to experience that with someone before. And so it’s, it’s actually, for me, like, it really turns me on that. I can have that. And it’s something that makes us very unique to this relationship. So I think that’s something that I would say has actually helped our intimacy is like,

I don’t know how to do this. You don’t know how to do this. Let’s figure this out together. Are you open to a question? I have a question for you. Would you mind sharing, if you feel comfortable, one or two of the fears that you had that you had to navigate? Yeah, for me, it was that he would find and fall in love with someone else and ended up leaving the relationship entirely.

A star is a demisexual. So I know that emotional connection is very important for him to have that intimacy, that, that sexual intimacy. So it wasn’t going to be for him, like just an easy transactional, casual sex thing. Like I can be for me. So the risk for me was like, okay, I have to not just be open to the sex part,

but also openness, open myself up more to having this emotional connection. So that’s the biggest fear that I’ve had. It’s still, I mean, it’s still a risk it’s possible. I think for him it was probably the same. You would probably say the same that I would, I would end up just having a fling with somebody, but that fling would turn into something else and I would turn into something else and eventually we would end up leaving the relationship entirely.

Yeah. I have a question now too. Cause like, well, I mean, I’ve had people before who, I don’t know why this tends to happen, but like people who are in those container relationships that then reach out to me to then, and they get very friendly and very talky and it develops into quite a, like a cause I’m very safe,

homosexual. Like my brain is the thing that turns me on. And so if you can get there, then the other things can happen. So I’ve had other times where people have approached me like that who have been in those relationships. And then I’m like, I don’t know how I feel about this. I know that you must have talked about it.

And for me personally, as the outsider, I always ask those questions. I’m always like, how, like what do you guys know? What do you guys tell each other? What are you guys’ rules? I’m not going to step on anybody’s toes. Cause I’ve had other people where it’s like one partner says something and then the other one’s like, Nope,

not true. And so I always double check with both people and I’m like, I want to make sure everybody’s on the same page of what’s happening here. But my question is, is like, what, what would happen if I’m just playing theoreticals here? What would happen if that did happen? But it was somebody that both parties were both interested in and then it became something of like a regular occurrence.

Is that like then evolving into like a pan sec? No, not pansexual, Polly a Polly kind of territory or is it not because it’s still like still contain? Yeah. That’s the beauty of being open. I think we’ve talked about that. And I mean, I, our, our tastes don’t, they overlap, but it’s not a big overlap,

but I mean, definitely something that we’re open to is, is openness together. And then, yeah. I mean, if, if some, you know, we we’ve actually had that discussion, like, Hey, what happens if like we really ended up liking someone? And like you said, Callen, when we’re open to being open. So if that happens,

then Hey, that’s a conver that’s going to be an interesting conversation to have, but you know, I’d like that, that it’s a possibility. It kind of makes things interesting. Does it, does, is it again like a throttle? Is that what you’re referring to? Yeah. I mean, if I met the right person, if we met the right person and like,

he just seamlessly, like does jot like just, just we had a good vibe and he just was easy to get along with and everything just worked. Why would I deny myself that and that, that mentality of why would I deny myself? That is the entire reason why I ended up in an open relationship. So I wanna, I wanna actually talk a little bit about that because like I was saying,

I was monogamous for all those relationships. And at the end of the last one, I had a good, hard look at my life single again. And I was like, okay, Michael, what does the future holds for you? And so at the end of the day, I had these two deep core needs. I really loved the comfort and safety of being in the relationship of,

with a partner and I, all my exes. I love them. They’re great. We had wonderful, beautiful relationships, but there was this need for a novelty and exploring different experiences that I also have. And similar to Matt, freedom, autonomy, very high up on my value chain list. So I used to think one was for being in relationships.

So I get that need met when I’m in relationships. And then I kind of quietly put the other one in the closet. And then when I’m single, I have the fun here, but then I don’t, I don’t get to enjoy all those wonderful things that come with the partnership. So it was, it was a siloed approach either I have these needs met here and these needs met here,

but I can’t have both. So that created a lot of resentment and it just, wasn’t always fun living like that. So eventually I said to myself, that’s not how I want to do it. I want to have both, why should I deny myself? Why should I deny myself both of these things in any given moment? So that’s how I ended up in the space of,

okay. So instead of this being an or situation, I want to find somebody and I didn’t know who would be open to this or how the hell I would do it. But I was like, Hey, the next relationship I’m in, I’m going in right from the jump saying, this is on the table. And that’s just a, non-negotiable at this point for me,

because I’ve done the I’ve done the monogamous thing. It worked in some ways didn’t work in others. So that is sort of how I got to this point. And with star, like I said, as soon as we started kind of talking and chatting and talking about this thing, I put it right on the table at the forefront, which I think scared him.

Well, I know scared him a little bit, but he was luckily open to it. So that’s how we got into the space in the first place. I want to bring up something really important here, because notice bleed, like everybody here has seeming had monogamous relationships up until this point and Michael you’re navigating your first open relationship. And cause a lot of the,

I guess you could say flip side of the coin of the arguments that I see is people saying that like, oh, open relationships are just people who can’t commit and like all of these kinds of fear-based conversations. And I just want to say to the listener, if you’re listening to this right now, and maybe that has been one of the arguments that you have thought of,

or that’s been kind of on this sector that you’ve been on is listened to the facts that we are presenting here is that like, we’ve all been enclosed, monogamous relationships, and it’s not like we just Willy nilly are going into open relationships because we can no longer commit. That is not what happened here. Michael has been in love, very long-term relationships and is now come to the consensus of like,

you know what, I need to find something that works better because obviously something wasn’t working. And so I just wanted to bring that up. Cause it seems very relevant to a lot of the conversations that happen, especially online because they know these, this conversation is a very big conversation starter in the group, in our, in our YouTube page. So I just wanted to bring that up for people to kind of be conscious of that and get a little bit more curious as to where those fears and those angers really,

truly come from. So sorry to sidetrack that. No, I agree. I wanted to make a point on that too, because I think, you know, this plays into attachment style because there’s there’s truth to what you said Kalyn, and there’s also truth to not that being true because I feel like there’s, you know, emotional avoidance is definitely a stress or when somebody is emotionally avoidant a strategy that they would employ would be openness because then they don’t have to commit.

But then there’s also people who know how to commit, know how to have beautiful intimacy and they just want to share that with multiple people, right? So there’s that shadow and there’s not light on that side. And then the other side of the spectrum, when you’re looking at monogamy, you know, the projection that people have to have that is, you know,

especially in the, in the polyamorous community, the open community is that these people are insecure, that they’re just governed by fear that they cannot tolerate jealousy. So they’re just wanting to possess their partner in and captivate them. So there’s that element. And then the, the non shadow side of that is that some people just love devotion and they love commitment.

And they love the idea of having that fairytale and building a life with one person. Right. And loyalty is something they really value. So I just think that it’s so it’s, it’s, it’s just not helpful to project your stuff into the world, right. Just really own the experience that you want to have. If you have fears around intimacy, work on them and,

and work on a secure attachment style. And if you’re so motivated and you love loyalty, then just own that, right? It’s like, why are we all having to compare ourselves to other people and say, well, I want this, but that person doesn’t want that. So somehow I must feel like I’m wrong. And then I have to project my rightness into the world.

It’s like, it’s just all this psychological games that we’re playing with ourselves that really it’s preventing us from being able to open ourselves up to healing. Right. And that’s the work I had to do because these conversations before I’m even remembering what it was like to be in that conversation with you guys two years ago, and there was something activated in me the whole time we were having it,

which was this fear of abandonment. And that’s what I’ve worked on in over the last two years is like deep, deep work on healing. My fear of abandonment. And now I have a secure attachment style predominantly because I’ve healed that fear. My fear of being in an open relationship was always governed by the exact fear that I asked Michael. And that’s why I asked,

cause I had a feeling that that was your fear because it seems to be everybody’s fear, right? What if this person leaves me for somebody better? Right. That’s I think why a lot of people don’t even want to fuck with openness because it’s like that’s, and that’s a very high possibility that could happen and how I’m making peace with that is like,

if that did happen to me, that’s in my cart, that’s meant to happen. Right. And that person is meant to go off. So I have to trust that if I have something and it’s really, really satiating and stable, that’s going to re that’s going to be, we’re going to keep it. It’s going to be there. But if someone else comes along,

that means that person was meant to be with that person. And I was meant to go through the grief and the loss. And that means that somebody else is coming down the road and they’re going to be an even better match for me. Right. So these are kind of the ways that I’m kind of making peace with all this stuff, but yeah,

very stimulating what you shared Callen. Cause it brought up all that. So Definitely. And if for people listening, if you want to know more about like attachment styles, we teach about it in our building better relationships course that you Can talk about in the Show notes. So you got all that in there, A module dedicated to it Seriously. And Matt,

I think what you said about how to handle it as exactly how we’ve we both look at it as like, well, you know, if someone, if that does happen, then yeah. That’s then like, I would want him to be happy if someone else makes them happier, then yes. I would want that for him. As much as it would hurt as much as it would be devastating for me,

then that’s the way it’s meant to be. The other thing is, you know, people who would say that while you’re just inviting, you’re just inviting, you know, disaster to come to your relationship. People in monogamous relationships, cheat all the time and they have no that the statistics would not show that people in monogamy don’t get left for other people.

I think it might actually be the opposite. Yeah. Look, the divorce rates like hello. Yeah. Like there’s obviously something going on. So let’s take a look at jealousy cause that’s come up a bit and that’s another one of the biggest reasons why people do not want to go down that road. So the question here is how do you handle jealousy in your relationships?

And we’ll again, we’ll start with calendar this time. So I’ve always been a very secure person in this regard with my first ex I never experienced any jealousy. It was almost the opposite. I always, always just like, like people would flirt with him and hit on him. Like yeah, you want it have, you can have it. And so I was just very comfortable and confident,

but I think that said more about just me being secure and happy in who I was. And so I didn’t like have any of that weird insecurity stuff around like, are they going to leave me? And even when our relationship ended, I had a friend who was like, oh, do you think like he cheated on you or this and that. And like,

it had never even crossed my mind. Cause I was like, no, I was like, I don’t think so. And then even if he had like, I mean to this day, I don’t believe it. But even if it had like, that’s, that’s his prerogative, that was his journey. Like that doesn’t say anything about me that says everything about him and his experience and who he is as a person.

And I think a lot of it, when it comes down to relationships is people take a lot of stuff on themselves and they do a lot of self-blaming and they do a lot of self insecure kind of stuff. And it’s the same as though when somebody attacks you, it says nothing about you as a person, when somebody attacks you or wants to bring you down or rip you down.

And it says everything about the other person, but it takes so much fucking self-development work and personal development work to get to that place where you’re like, not just like blindly being like, oh, that’s your shit. But like what, what information that they’re saying? Can I take onboard? Can I say, okay, I can see valid like valid stuff here,

but then also sift through and go, no that’s bullshit or that’s bullshit or that bullshit. Cause there’s always grains of truth. And then there’s always like, you know, grains that aren’t true. Right? There’s your perspective. There’s the other person’s perspective. And then there’s the third party perspective in the middle. That’s the truth between everything. Right? And so jealousy has never really been a big issue for me,

even in my second relationship. I mean, I didn’t experience any jealousy and like, even from him, because I was flying around the world and like I could be doing, God knows what with whoever knows what, right. Because I’m all over the place, but we never, I never really experienced that. I don’t know if I could say the same for now because I think maybe I’ve developed a little bit more insecurities,

but I think maybe that’s just because it’s been so long that I’ve really truly been in a relationship, but I’d like to believe that I’m still a pretty secure person in that regard. And so jealousy doesn’t play a role for me. What it does do is it plays the opposite. So I’m usually the one that people are getting bitchy at or coming for,

because they’re jealous of, and it’s not that I’m hitting on your boyfriend or anything. I’m just being me, being a nice person. And other people look at that and their shit comes up and then they start attacking you or throwing shit at me, which I mean go to your own fucking work. But I take that with a grain of salt. It’s like,

if this is who I need to be on your journey so that you can grow and develop cool. But like just don’t be an awful mean person. That’s what I really hate. Just mean-spirited people who really get into it. I don’t got time for that. I had to go to your own work, go get therapy. Like every other adults should and like do the work yourself.

It’s nobody else’s responsibility, but your own. So that’s my kind of experience with jealousy. But I’m curious to see what you guys have to say, Matt. Yeah. Okay. First off jealousy is the worst emotion to experience for me. I hate it. It’s like all consuming intoxicating. It just takes me over, but my relationship has shifted with it,

which is oh nice. I’m like for the first time in my life, I’m finally feeling spaciousness around, around jealousy. And so here I’ll share my, a little bit of a story that will help kind of play this. I was a very deep feeler as a kid, felt my emotions extremely intense, went through a period in my life where I experienced some trauma,

my parents divorced and I just shut off my emotions. Okay. And I didn’t experience jealousy and I didn’t experience jealousy probably told us about 25. And I didn’t really realize that my jealousy was a so intense because I wasn’t feeling jealousy. Right. It’s easy to not be jealous if you’re not feeling your emotions. Right. Because jealousy is an emotion that’s,

it’s like saying I don’t feel sadness. Right. Because jealousy is an emotion. We all experienced it. I think we just get good at that feeling it right. So that’s the first part. The second part is my, the fear of abandonment. That’s where my jealousy became. It was so intense because you know, jealousy really essentially is different from envy in the sense that it requires three people.

Right? And we have the experience of, I am worried that if this person has this experience, I am going to miss out. I’m going to lose this connection. That’s what jealousy is. And I had some core wounding when I was younger around my mum and dad. And this is actually pretty prevalent within evolutionary psychology that this happens where the child becomes jealous of one of the parents.

So if you are really attached to your mother and your father comes in and is like grabbing her and kissing her and showing affection, the child can experience jealousy. And that’s usually where we, where our relationship with jealousy originates. And for me, it was really, that was a really challenging thing that I had to navigate as a child. So that’s probably where it became intense from a young age.

And then my father leaving when I was around nine and that fear of abandonment came in. It that’s what made jealousy so hard for me because whenever I would see somebody coming near my partner, I would get overwhelmed with jealousy that this person’s going to come in. They’re going to be better than me in all of these ways. And I would focus on my own insecurities and what made me not good enough.

And that was what would make my jealousy so intense. So I just wanted to precursor that because now I’ll answer the question. How do you handle jealousy in your relationships? Well, in the past, I’ve, over-focused on my partners and I’ve under focused on me. So their re their pleasure, their connections, their life, their job became a focal point of mine.

And that was the, the anxious part of my fearful avoidant attachment. And the work I’ve done in the last few years is around healing. My codependency has been focusing on me making my needs a priority, my wants my desires. And so when, when I use this mantra every morning, actually I I’ll say I am free. You are free. I am free.

You are free. And that’s to all my relationships, but more specifically to my, my romantic partner, because if I value freedom, I have to learn how to give freedom as well. And, and so a lot of the work I’ve been doing is how can I let my partner have freedom? And the answer is by focusing on my own freedom,

what do I get out of being free? Right? What do I get out of the connections that I want to have? So, you know, me from the past, I’d be perseverating on like, oh my partner. You know, if we did open, think about all the amazing sex he’d be having and I’d drive myself batty. Right? But now I’m like,

think about all the amazing sex that I’m going to get to have. Right. And prioritizing that. And that’s, that’s, that’s one of the biggest ways I’ve learned how to cope with jealousy. And then the, the, the tangibles within the relationship. I think the biggest one is feel your jealousy, because if you’re using all these little defense mechanisms around your jealousy to not feel it,

you’re not developing a tolerance to it, right. You’re developing a tolerance to the initial pain, but you’re not developing a tolerance to the, the unfolding of the jealousy and the, like the, the discharging of the jealousy. And for me, I discharged jealousy by talking about it and talking about it very vulnerably. And I really don’t like having to admit when I’m jealous,

but as soon as I do it, it’s completely it discharges. And if you have a good partner who can really hold you through that, then that’s the biggest difference. Right? So, yeah, he’ll codependency focus on yourself, talk about your, your, your jealousy vulnerably and feel it dust, let it Frick and take you over, feel it,

breathe through it, and you’ll be good. And that is such a beautiful answer. And I love the way you both answered that differently. Cause I also had answered it in a slightly different way, but I think it’s really useful to have that like tangible, how to do it. Like, and Matt, thank you for taking us through that like sort of background.

I think that’s really helpful. I think it’ll resonate with a lot of people, certainly for me. So the way I want to answer how I handle jealousy and again, the good news is I have a lot of very firsthand recent experience with it. So I will tell you guys exactly how we have agreed to handle Chelsea. It doesn’t mean we always do it doesn’t mean we always get a right.

This is kind of like the best efforts basis. This is what we’ve decided works for us. So it’s really easy. One is curiosity. Step one, curiosity, get curious about it. And step two is communication. So I’ll take you through what that looks like with an example, but I also want to say that jealousy is a very natural and very normal in all relationships,

in any relationship monogamous or otherwise. And I would even argue in my experience when I was in previous relationships and granted, this could also be because I did it wasn’t I didn’t have, I didn’t do the same development work as I had then as I do now, but I was jealous then too. The difference was we didn’t talk about it. We didn’t have a reason to really talk about it.

Whereas in this open relationship, at least with my partner, communication is like the foundation of our open relationship. It’s not a don’t ask, don’t tell it’s very much a ask and tell. So, so I’ll say, so first thing is curiosity. And so I’ll give an example. So for me, jealousy does not come up in the way it might for other people.

So my partner and I go to the gym together, which I think is great. And I see guys, I fuck him all the time and I love it. Similar to a counseling. I get the same reaction. I’m like, yes, go for it. And I just, it makes me smile. It makes me laugh. I just love watching it happen.

I think it’s so great. I have no jealousy about that whatsoever. And then even if they go talk to them, even if they like go and start talking to them, I’m like, okay, I’m kind of curious. I’m just kind of watching to see what he does. Cause he’s very shy and I I’m, we’re here to see how he handles it,

but I get a kick out of it. I just kind of stand back and watch and enjoy. So that would make me get to jealous. However, what would get the jealousy monster out of me is this is an example. This didn’t actually happen, but let’s say he went out on a date and he goes, oh, the sky was good looking and all the things.

And then he comes home and tells me all about it and says, oh, we had this great discussion. We had a fascinating conversation. It was so interesting. And we talked about spirituality and metaphysics and like he, he was intellectually stimulated and that had a great conversation and didn’t even have sex. That’s not even part of it. And they had dinner and wine and this great time.

That is where I would feel the jealousy. Because for me it’s more about that, that intellectual stimulation that I’m like, wait a minute, Hey, like that’s mine, you can’t have that. So again, this is just for me. So then the second step is, is cure. Sorry. The first step is curiosity. So I’d asked myself what exactly is creating the feeling of jealousy.

Let’s kind of like dig into it. What is, what is creating this? Is it something that I want that I’m not getting? For example, he has something that I want or is he giving away something that I think is for me, that is he’s giving it to someone else or is it a fear thing or is it all three jealousy, often masks as fear match.

A great example is a great that fear of abandonment. Right? So, and then another one would be, is there a boundary being crossed? So I’ll kind of look at it in those ways, you know, is he, does he have something I want is giving away something that I want, or is there a fear or a boundary? So perhaps in this example,

I’d feel jealous because they had a long intimate conversation. And maybe in our relationship lately, we haven’t had a lot of time together. And I kind of miss having those conversations with just the two of us. And because intellectual stimulation is very important to me, that is the source of my jealousy. Okay. So that’s one, the next is the hardest part,

which is communication. That’s when you have to share it or as Matt says, discharge it, right. This is the discharge piece, I guess. So that’s when we have like that little check-in and I would use that as a chance to practice vulnerability and use it as a chance to even bring us closer together. Hopefully if, if the conversation goes well,

by letting him into my emotional world, right. And letting him feel like helping them understand how I feel. And so I would explain to him, okay, you know, I felt a little bit jealous about this situation. Here’s why I think that is right. Kind of having the answers for myself first, because I had already done that curiosity piece.

And then who knows after that conversation, after that communication, hopefully, ideally what happens is it brings us closer together. You know, it’d be like, Hey, here’s what happened? I feeling a little bit jealous about it because you know, we, haven’t had a good date night in like a few weeks and I really miss connecting with you and I hear you going out and doing the things that I really love to do with you.

And I just feel like I missed that, you know, very vulnerable share for me, but he’s like, oh, okay. Yeah, that makes total sense. Because in this particular example, he’s done nothing wrong. He’s, he’s back to totally within the container of our relationship, if he wants to go on a date and talk to people that’s,

that’s great. So it would allow us to kind of check in with each other, which is nice. Sometimes maybe it even tweaks or shifts our openness and we’re like, you know what, maybe we need to build some kind of rule around here or something. And that might happen from the communication or potentially sometimes you don’t know there’s a boundary until it’s across.

So maybe I’m like, listen, we, I’m not okay with going on romantic dates with people. That’s, I mean, we have to like talk about that and build that in perhaps. So that’s how I would use the curiosity and then communication piece and what might happen. And I actually also want to add here that if there’s a deeper issue, like if something happened and it created a big rift in the relationship,

it’s totally, Okereke okay to repair that rift in the container of closed. Yes. If the, if that helps. So that’s something that we also decided is if things get really like, not great with us, if we’re kind of in a downward spiral, then the openness is off the table and we really focus in on each other and building that foundation back before we open it up again,

that’s just something that’s totally okay. And we’ve decided that would work for us. So yeah, that is the, the curiosity and communication piece. I think it would be very helpful to, for anyone to apply that in their relationship, regardless of whether it’s open or not. I was literally just going to say that great minds. Great, great minds.

Think alike. We do that often here on this podcast. Okay guys, let’s move on to the next question. So this one’s an important one too. I’m curious. So whichever your needs do you expect your primary partner to meet and which needs can be met outside of the relationship? And this time let’s start with Matt. Oh, the one time you want to start with me.

And I can’t think of anything. I’m like, what are the, I’m just in this real, this real energy right now of like, I meet my needs. Like it’s it’s it’s and it sounds so weird to say that because I feel so empowered right now by that, because for so long, I was leaking out my power for other people meeting my needs,

especially in my relationships. And now I almost feel kind of needless it’s it’s like a really interesting, and maybe I’m just swinging to the other end of the, of the spectrum to create balance, because I know that’s probably not going to last because as you get to know someone and you have there’s the relational needs that you can’t meet for yourself. Right.

And You speak to those ones, then speak to the relational, needs, the ones that you would want a primary partner to meet. And I, and I think the thing is, I’m not sure, like, you know, you say you use the word primary partner, but it’s like, what type of relationship structure are you in? If you’re in polyamory?

You know, that’s the thing of relationship enter key is it’s like there’s a hierarchy to, within a relationship and key that you have your primary, secondary, tertiary, whatever that might be. But within a polyamorous container where it is closed, then you, and you’re relating with all of them. They’re all your primary partners. Right. So I’m trying to conceptualize.

So let’s say if I was in a relationship structure where I’m open and I have a primary partner, and then I have guys that would be secondary, right. Because I’m also demisexual. So I wouldn’t involve myself in random sexual experiences per se. I would, if I was open, I would be open sexually and emotionally. So, you know, I do yearn to have a relationship with,

with one person that they’re my go to and we build, we build together. Cause I just, I love this notion of building something with somebody, whether it be a business or it be, you know, a home or a life together or just that person that’s like your ride or die, they’re your go-to. And I could see that being my life,

I really feel lit up right now. Just even sharing that. Like, I would love to have that one person that is my go-to and then I have other relationships that meet needs for me, which would probably to be honest, the, I have a need for novelty. Like you, Michael, like just tons of variety. I love new experiences.

I love new people. I love new sex with somebody like, and when it’s really like fun and exciting and playful. And so I think those would be the needs I would want to have met with, by a primary partner is like devotion, deep trust, consistency. And just somebody that gets gets me, you know, like I, I just started dating somebody within the last few months and there’s this real beautiful,

like energy of just feeling gotten, like don’t really even have to explain myself, which is very rare for me. I’ve had I’ve I’ve told the story of myself for so long that I’m, that I’m complex, that people have a hard time understanding me and whether that’s true or not, it’s, it’s still my story. And I think that this person is alleviating that for me and really making me feel like seen and heard.

And he’s just, it’s just amazing. Right. So I think that’s what I’ve been really looking for my whole life. And that’s probably my biggest need is to feel understood and just to feel heard and seen and not all people can make you feel that I’m realizing like there’s a lot of people just really fucking suck at that. Whether the, whether they’re just preoccupied with self or they’re,

they’re, they’re just not, they’re just not good listeners or they’re, you know, have poor eye contact, whatever it might be, but it’s really special when somebody comes along into your life and they just get you, you know, and I just really valued that. What about you, Kevin? Hopefully you have a better answer than mine. I’m like,

mine was, I’m like this one. I’m like, ah, I don’t know, because I’ve not been in a like real committed kind of relationship for such a long time. So I’m kind of just trying to think of like what with those needs to be met. So I’m kind of thinking of maybe more of a concept of like part different types of partners that are out there.

Cause I know that there’s some people who, you know, are in relationships where one’s like super outgoing and the other one’s more like a home body and like likes to chill and like maybe doesn’t necessarily like to go out with all the friends. And I, I know experiences of people who have friends like that. And then the friends kind of like dig into the partner.

Who’s like maybe it’s their friend and their friend’s the outgoing one. And then the new partners, like more of a stay at home, home body and then kind of dig into it. Like why doesn’t your boyfriend come out with us? Wasn’t he like, why isn’t he fun? Why isn’t he do this? And it’s like, because sometimes your partners fulfill different aspects of your needs than your friends do.

And that, that’s an important thing to understand is that yes. Sometimes you do like to go out and do the same things, and that’s what you want your primary partner to be, or your partners fees to be that person who, you know, goes out with you and spends a lot of time together and does all those things. But for me,

that would be very suffocating. And so for me, I’m kind of like, I wouldn’t mind if like, I’m, I love being an introvert. I love staying at home and like, I re-energized by myself. And so it’s like go out with your friends so that I can have alone time. And just like watching Netflix and being able to be seen,

like you said, Matt, and having a partner who understands that and appreciates that and loves that because maybe they have sides of themselves that is also like, that is really beautiful to like, once you get to that space where you understand that. So it’s like, if your friends don’t understand that maybe it’s a conversation you have where you go, Hey guys,

my like my partner fulfills very different needs than you guys fulfill. And that’s why I like them. That’s why they’re my partner because they provide different aspects of my life. And it’s like, I don’t always want to go and be the fun time. Sometimes I want to be a little bit more chilled out. And if they’re truly good friends, they should be the people who is like,

oh, whoever you’re with. I know that there gotta be an amazing person. We’d love to see them when we see them. And if they don’t like, that’s totally cool. I think it really just comes down to the connection of, of what the type of connection is. And that’s why maybe I’m going to have so much trouble answering this questions because each and every individual person,

you have a relationship with the answer’s going to be different for each and every one of them. And so I think because the two more serious relationships I’ve had were very different. And so it’s like, I know that any relationship I get into, it’s all going to be very much based on that individual, because there’s going to be things that this person exudes in that I’m like,

I love this. And then there’s going to be other aspects where I’m like, oh, okay, well, there’s a little bit of a fall short here for me, but do I need to have my primary partner give me that? Or can I get that somewhere else? You know, like I looking for a partner who is more outgoing, who does a lot of things because I don’t,

and I know that if I’m with another introvert, I’m going to literally just like cocoon and nobody’s ever going to see us. Right. And so I know for me, I need a partner who’s more outgoing, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to go out with them all the time. And so these are just kind of things I keep in mind so that I know that like they,

yeah. So that’s kind of maybe a bit of my answers. I know my primary partner is going to need to be more outgoing. But even in saying that if I found somebody who was more like me, then if there were secondary people, they would have to be the ones who were more fun and outgoing and like, cause then I’d at least have that outlet for when I did want it.

I don’t know if that fully answers the question, but those are just some concepts that came up to me. Yeah. I think it totally answers the question. And when we say secondary partner doesn’t necessarily mean another romantic partner just means other people in the world, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Your social circle. And so that’s, that’s sort of the nature of the question is we all know it’s not fair to anyone to believe that they,

one person in the world is going to meet all of our relational needs. Our connection is, that’s why it’s great to have friends and, and different people. And so the question is about, yeah, like your romantic partner, what, what can you meet? Or what do you want them only to fulfill exclusively versus, you know, what can you,

what can you have others? So, you know, Kalyn had a great example about socializing and, you know, I know that you love your dodgeball, but here’s a good question. If your partner is like, yeah, less than I’m not really into Dodge ball, is that something that you’d be like, okay, no problem. I have my dodgeball friends.

Or would you like to know it’s really important for me that you come to Dodge ball with me? No, absolutely not go have your own life. Right. And I think that’s important too. Cause I I’ve seen so many people get lost in their relationships and it’s so important to have your own lives because that breeds creativity and curiousness and it allows you to explore different conversations and it adds a more fulfilled newness to the relationship.

So I think it’s very important to have those separations. Yeah, I would agree. I would agree for myself as well. And I know Matt, you know, you love your freedom as well. So I came up with a list of some relationship needs, or I don’t know if these are the right word, but you know, to help kind of think about this is obviously there’s the emotional safety and intimacy,

right? I have, I have a need for intellectual stimulation, a need to share my interests and hobbies with other people going like someone to go to things with. So if my family has a Christmas dinner, I want someone to bring and I’m going to a wedding. I want to plus one, all these little things that like having that, obviously physical attention,

physical affection, sex time together, just someone to just do shit with and just have just sit on the couch and watch Netflix with other ones can be, you know, safety, security, I’m a big traveler. So I have a need to travel. And then of course, things like trust someone I can be vulnerable with. And, and for me,

future envisioning is a big piece as well. So someone I can like Matt was saying someone who I can sit down with and be like, Hey, what are we creating? Let’s build something. Let’s co-create that is really important for me. So all these needs that I just mentioned can be met in a variety of different ways and a variety of different people.

The question is which ones do you want to exclusively from your partner? So that’s something interesting to think about. And again, it could always change one great example. I, I like to use is going on a vacation. So let’s, let’s imagine like a monogamous couple and one wants to go on a vacation to like Brazil, but the other ones,

like I have no interest in going to Brazil, it’s hot and sweaty and sticky. And I don’t know I’ve gotten there, but the other one was like, no, no, I’ve always wanted to go. Some couples would just say, okay, well, if we’re not both going then neither of us are going and others would be like, oh my gosh,

of course you go go to Paris. We’ll have a great time. And I’ll be back here when you get back. So again, even within like monogamous relationship, it’s not even about openness. There are different norms and different needs that partners might not be willing or might not be able to meet. Another way you could look at it is they might not want to go alone.

They might want to go with their partner and have that experience together. So for me, I would say looking at that list, I would say it’s a lot easier for me to just tell you I’m willing to meet all of my needs either in or the relationship except the ones that I, that must be for me, you know, exclusive to my primary partner would be someone I can bring into my family.

I have no desire, intention to bring like multiple people like this one at Christmas and this one for a wedding. And like, no, no, no. I want one person that I’m going to introduce to my family as like my guy. And then another one that I want exclusively for my partner is someone to share a home with. You know,

my home is my safe spot. It’s my Oasis. It’s my Zen area. I don’t want to have a lot of people building a home. I was just wanting to just me and him to create what we want our home to be. And then the biggest one is co-creating the future lifestyle? Like what are our shared visions for ourselves and each other?

And so those things, those three, for me, it has to be with star or my primary partner. Anything else I could really have with anyone? I like that. I really liked that. That’s open my eyes a little bit and didn’t even think of those things Trust. I’ve had a lot of time to think about this stuff, guys. It’s fair.

I told you it’s very active and real for me. Okay. We are almost at time. So let’s finish off our episode today with some tips. So what tips do you have for anyone out there who’s listening, watching who is trying to decide which relationship structure works for them and let’s do Matt again, I guess. Well, This topic used to really trigger me and I used to avoid it.

Any discussions that would come up around like pro openness, I would just feel the activation and I wouldn’t want to go there because my fear of abandon would, would, would come up. And I would say I started to heal this stuff when I started to move towards it. Right. So oftentimes like, again, fear, what do we do with our fear?

While a lot of us, we build these little defense mechanisms around us to not have to deal with it. So projection denial, minimization rationalization, and we don’t be with it. And I just think it’s so crucial to be with the fear, right? That’s step one. And then to ask yourself the question, who am I without this fear? Because for me all along in my whole life,

I’ve wanted freedom, openness, variety, because these are things I love and they make me so excited and that’s when I’m motivated by love. But then when I’m motivated by fear, I don’t want any of those things. Cause I can’t, I can’t handle my partner having those things. So I just think that really, you know, ask yourself that question,

who would I be without the fear that is showing up for me right now? And then that’s going to be the relationship structure that you probably want. Right. And if you’re really governed by like just really love and connection and these things in you and you want monogamy honor that, right? So it’s just really about getting clear and focusing on your authentic needs and desires and I’ll just leave it there.

It’s pretty simple. It’s not simple work, obviously. It’s very deep, deep work, but it’s very simple way to theorize it. I guess Just get curious, stop being such a judgmental Judi and just get curious, even if it’s just by yourself, you know, nobody needs to know your thoughts. Nobody needs to know you’re thinking what you’re thinking.

Stop being so judgmental, if you are, and just get curious about it. Just ask questions, open-ended questions. Maybe do it in your journal, ask you to, you know, write a question in your journal. What do I feel about this? What do I feel about that? And just let yourself write. And sometimes things come up you’re like,

huh? I didn’t really know. I felt like that. And that it’s okay. And then don’t judge yourself for the answers you come up with. Exactly. Beautiful tips, Matt, what was your question again? The one that you, you asked the Boy always to say, what? Who would I be without this fear? Okay. Yeah. Good one.

So, so guys get out your journal, write that one down there. The one that calendar shared as well. And then I have one as well. What makes me feel safe and loved and gets me off That’s for me, because sex is a very big part of my life in a high value for me. So it needs to have both. Right.

And then if you’re someone who’s curious about openness, maybe you’re like, like me, hasn’t done it. But curious about it, ask yourself what is the source of that curiosity? I think that’s an interesting question to see where it’s coming from. For me, it definitely came from looking back at my previous relationships and noticing a common thread of something that,

where I was denying myself, something that I really truly wanted. And I tried to kid myself that it either wasn’t important enough of a need that I like, I could just sacrifice this. It’s just, it’s not that important. Or, you know, realizing that it, it wasn’t important to, I just didn’t know how to do it. So yeah,

definitely. Those are great tips. Get curious, ask the questions. And I was also add to that, just do it like that energy that I think both of you guys started off the conversation with of getting curious and trying like go out day people, you know, day people, see, see what it’s like, if you try it, don’t like it.

Then, you know, it’s not for you or approach it with curiosity, of course, kinda like you’re trying a new food or like, like you’re going to a buffet and like there’s all these flavors. And you’re like, oh, I haven’t had a lot of these. Let me just taste this thing. See if I like it. If you do great,

have more, if not, you know, it’s not for you. So, you know, that’s another way to go out and figure out what’s right for you is try few things and see what works. All right guys, One quick thing. And I think it’s really important. So I would say, learn about your attachment style because your attachment style,

whether it’s secure or insecure, it’ll really give you a clear sense of where your fears are showing up and why you’re showing up in relationships, the way that you are. And if you’re wanting to know what your attachment style is, we have created a free quiz. It’s like a five minute quiz that you can take to find out what your attachment style is.

And we will make sure that we include that in the show notes. Yes, absolutely. Thank you for reminding us of that. Okay. Colin, did you want to add anything? Nope. Before we end up. Okay. Okay guys, thank you so much for joining us here today. On this episode, we hope that you liked what you heard and if you did,

please leave us a review. We read our reviews the beginning of each episode, and also go ahead and give us a nice five star rating. Check out the show notes. We’ve got lots of goodies in there for you about how you can support the show about the game and going deeper membership, the free trial, the quiz, all the good stuff.

And then don’t forget last Thursday of every month, we’re hosting a GMB zoom hangout. So check out the Facebook group. Thank you again to my lovely co-host Matt and Calan. And we’ll see you guys next time.