The Anxious Gay Mind

[00:00:02] Michael Diiorio: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men’s Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. Today, I am your host. My name is Michael Diiorio. I am a life and wellness coach specializing in self-confidence, sexuality and relationships.

Today’s episode is about the ‘Anxious Gay Mind’.

Some of the topics we’ll be covering today are why it’s common for gay men to feel anxious in our modern society, the impact of our sexual orientation on our mental health, the unique ways we experience anxiety and what we do to cope with it. And I am going to make sure that we pack this episode with tips, tools, and techniques to manage your anxiety.

And my guest today is Pepper of the Gay Good. He has been a guest on the show three times before. This is Pepper’s fourth appearance, and previously we’ve talked about some really juicy topics, some of my favorite topics. So if you haven’t had a chance to listen to those episodes, I want to give Pepper a chance to introduce himself. So, Pepper, welcome back to the show.

[00:01:04] Pepper: Thank you so much for having me, Michael. I’m happy to be here, as always.

Good to see you again as well. For those listening on home or, you know, on your drive to work or whatnot, or maybe to the club. So my name is Pepper. I’m a content creator based out of Los Angeles, California. Proud Brazilian American, proud queer gay man. Yeah, I also do birth chart readings, music play, volleyball. Lots and lots going on. I do want to say a special thank you for having me on for this episode, specifically because, as you alluded to, the last three discussions we had were a little bit more juicy, a little bit more on the sexual side. We talked about Grindr. We talked about sharing x rated, maybe NSFW photos and how to manage friends with benefits type relationships. So don’t get me wrong, I’ve had a lot of fun with those discussions, but I think it’s important to be back for this conversation to share. Yes, I am an outspoken sexual person at times, but like many of us, we’re multifaceted creatures, so we can have those discussions and, you know, a little bit more of a risqué chat, but also hold space for the fact that there’s so much more going on in our minds and our lives than just, you know, those fun topics. So I think it’s important that we’re meeting here to talk about something a little bit more heavy today and something that, you know, is a very constant experience for many of us.

[00:02:30] Michael Diiorio: Absolutely. Yep. And for those of you who don’t follow the Gay Good. I’ll put it in the show notes, but Pepper has a lot of really awesome content on this and so many really relevant topics. To Gay Men. That’s one of the reasons I love having you on here, Pepper. I think people can relate with you so, so much. And you are that multifaceted person that I think it’s so important to talk about. And the way you said it was really, really powerful. Like, yes, we can talk about the fun things and the juice of things, but also we can have really deep conversations, and that’s what this podcast is all about.

[00:02:58] Pepper: Yeah, thank you for plugging the gay good. I always forget to mention that’s kind of how we met, why I’m here. I run an Instagram account called Gay Good, and I’ve been doing that for the last four years. So thank you again. You might say plug yourself. And here I am. And I’m really excited to announce a little relaunch the lens of the Gay Good. Like, we’re launching our first purse, first post back in just a couple of days. So it’s going to be a lot like this discussion. And this podcast has made me really excited to get back into the gay good. I used to hide a little bit more behind my posts, not really show much of myself, and now it’s going to be a little bit more me centered in a way that I think will be a lot more relatable and also a lot more exciting and authentic for me as a creator to, you know, connect with this audience that I feel really grateful to have in my life.

[00:03:53] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, that’s awesome. I can’t wait for the relaunch. Happy to support you.

[00:03:56] Pepper: Thank you.

[00:03:57] Michael Diiorio: Okay, let’s jump into today’s topic. So I want to do a little intro on the topic of anxiety, and then we’ll get into our discussion question. So anxiety is a perfectly normal feeling that we all experience from time to time. On the positive side, it allows us to deal with perceived threats in our environment. It tells us that we need to restore emotional safety.

And so a manageable amount of anxiety from this perspective is very useful and harmless. For example, some of the good ways that anxiety could show up in your life, if you’re preparing for a job interview, it’ll help you focus on that task at hand. Right? It might make you aware of the risks if you’re going to some stranger’s house for a grinder hookup, right. It might make you think twice about, oh, I better make sure I text my friend. I better find the location here, you know, all those things that you may want to do. It might even motivate you to schedule a doctor’s appointment if you’re anxious about a health concern. So anxiety can be good and useful. So you might be thinking, well, why the anxious gay mind? What is it about the anxious gay mind? Why do you have to insert that word? Because, yes, everyone, gay or straight, experiences anxiety. Very common sources of anxiety are health concerns, work life, money issues, finances, even just the state of the world that we are in now. If you think about that for a long time, it can create a lot of anxiety for you. Or as always, relationships can be a great source of anxiety.

But today, we are going to be looking at it from a very specifically gay lens, because as gay, bi, queer people, we have many unique, special reasons to feel anxious and many different coping mechanisms that we can turn to, some of which are very useful, and they provide you with relief, and they can empower you, some of which are not so useful, and they can exacerbate the anxiety and actually leave you feeling powered less. And we’re going to be talking about all of that today. So, one caveat I want to make, and this is very important. Um, yes, I talked about feeling anxious from time to time is normal. However, it can become a problem if your anxiety feels overwhelming, if it’s persistent, if it feels unmanageable to you, if it comes up unexpectedly for seemingly no reason and disrupts your day-to-day function.

Okay. Anxiety disorder is a mental health condition that can range from mild to moderate to severe to panic level. And there are several anxiety related disorders. Pepper and I are not qualified to diagnose or treat any of those anxiety disorders, and that’s not what we’re doing here today. Okay? We’re not focusing on that. We’re talking about that general feeling of anxiety and offering some tips and tools on how you can cope with it. But if your anxiety is preventing you from living the life that you want, then we absolutely recommend speaking to a doctor or therapist, and I will link some resources in the show notes for this episode.

Okay, let’s jump in. So, research shows that gay men experience proportionately higher levels of anxiety, depression, and substance abuse than our heteropeers. So my first question for you, Pepper, is, why is that? What do we, as gay men, have to be so anxious about?

[00:07:04] Pepper: Oh, how much time do we have?

[00:07:06] Michael Diiorio: I know, right?

[00:07:07] Pepper: There’s. There’s so much that’s constantly, constantly on our mind, from finances to fitting in to feelings of being undesirable or unlovable, which I have struggled with. We can talk about body image; we can talk about so many different things that are specific to living life as a queer gay man. I think a lot of it stems from how we were raised and how we continue to be raised. I know I speak for myself and a lot of other mundane who grew up fearful in school, in college, you know, out in your first times at the bar scene. I grew up fearful of being outed, of being misunderstood, of not being protected, of being hurt, whether that be emotionally or physically. I think I’ve shared on this podcast that I didn’t experience a lot of physical bullying, thankfully, but I did feel a great ton of shame growing up. And unfortunately, when we’re younger, a lot of us didn’t have the tools, the heroes, the support that we needed to process, to heal. So we still hold on to a lot of that. And, you know, it comes in waves. It comes in waves for me. Sometimes I feel powerful and then sometimes even this month, I can share that it hasn’t been the best mental health wise for me. I’ve had some more recent bouts with dread and anxious thoughts and intrusive thoughts, but a lot of it does stem for how I grew up and the patterns that came with that lifestyle and repeated instances of fear. So I think that is one of the reasons why gay men do tend to experience more anxiety, is that at a base level, there was a lot of fear and shame in our day to day lives. And even if we’re liberated, free, partnered, stable, there can still be specific triggers that take us right back to that day in the fourth grade or that night at one of your first gay clubs. And those are really hard patterns and narratives to break and to restructure. And I know my anxiety has changed throughout the year, and my relationship, too, has changed. And I’m sure we’re going to get to that. But a lot of it does stem from those really early memories that I have growing up as a closeted gay man.

[00:09:41] Michael Diiorio: Yeah. Have you heard of the term minority stress?

[00:09:44] Pepper: Oh, absolutely. I have posted about the concept of minority stress, especially as a gay man of color, as a Brazilian American, that’s something I experienced in college. You know, I didn’t find a lot of queer friends. When I first came out, I felt that DC was very much a white boys club. And don’t get me wrong, I’m not calling for all my white friends over here, but I did certainly feel ostracized. And intersectionality definitely plays in all of this. But just the minority of being a queer individual in America, or even worse, in many other areas of our planet, for those of you listening not in the states, is overwhelming, and it can feel very isolated and lonely.

[00:10:33] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, that’s right. So for those of you who don’t know the term minority stress, it refers to the unique stressors that you experience due to discrimination, prejudice, and the social disadvantages of being a gay or queer man living in a straight world.

Okay? So even as Pepper said, even if you might be in the most liberated free country, it doesn’t matter, because at any point, for. For us, we know that our rights could be taken away. And that always is, like, a little, like, just, we have to live with the fact that our rights could be taken away at any moment. Right? And that adds some stress. There’s that fear of discrimination still, even in the most, you know, um, open minded societies, um, the hyper vigilance that. That pepper talked about, uh, I. I think for me, coming out is a lifelong endeavor. So, like, every time I have to do this again, like, fuck, I have to come out again. Like, why can’t people just know? Or why. Why does this conversation have to keep happening? Um, that can be an element of stress for a lot of people and then those microaggressions that accumulate over time. Um, what are some common areas where you have felt minority stress or where actually where you do still feel minority stress?

[00:11:40] Pepper: Definitely in the workplace. You know, I’m. I feel like, you know, part of this I’m proud of, but it’s not always fun being the gay coworker. You know, there are certain stereotypes that come with that, and no one really likes to be judged by their book cover. And unfortunately, I feel like queer people still are. You assume I’m going to bed one way. You assume that I’m shady or potentially distrust worthy, potentially dangerous, perverted. And these are some really dark stereotypes that follow us. And that’s something that I feel sometimes, even as a restaurant server, when I get a lot of tourists visiting Los Angeles at my restaurant, people from the south, especially here in LA, and I can feel a little bit of discomfort coming up from the table when I’m just trying to do my job, trying to be very friendly and welcoming. But that is one specific place where I still feel minority stress from, really, the second I open my mouth or they see that I have a ponytail or I’m wearing shorter shorts than the other guys at my restaurant.

[00:12:49] Michael Diiorio: Yeah.

In my men’s group, I run a ten-week men’s group called shamelessly gay men’s group. And the first topic we covered is minority stress. I think it’s so important that everything that we talk about when it comes to our mental health as queer people has to have that threat of minority stress tied into it because it is there. And whether we know it or not, and even if we’ve done the work, we have still grown up, as you alluded to, being othered, being different. And that has no doubt taken a toll on our identity and how we show up in the world. So some of the ways that it comes up most commonly is learning to hide who we are. We are closeted, as you had mentioned. So learning at a young age to hide who you are. When other people don’t have to deal with this, they could just be themselves more freely. Right. That takes a toll. Not feeling safe. This is an interesting one. Not feeling safe with other men and or boys, yet also feeling attracted to those same men. Boys can really fuck up your sense of, like, what you want and desire and danger. Right.

Also, learning that your true desires around sex and relationships are something to be ashamed of. That’s very common. I grew up Catholic, so need I say more? You know, that feeling of shame, there’s something wrong with you. That was my story. Something’s wrong with me. Why can’t this be fixed? I would be praying for it to go away. It doesn’t go away, guys. And then also another one is when you’re in the closet. And this has come up with my clients who’ve come out later in life, they don’t trust others. They have a hard time trusting. They also feel like they are not trustworthy because they themselves have encapsulated this identity of someone who lies, someone who hides, someone who keeps secrets. Yes, they’re doing it to protect themselves. But still, being in the closet for such a long period teaches you the opposite of vulnerability. It teaches you to hide who you are, and vulnerability is the exact opposite. So all of this, not to mention for a lot of people out there, we had a lack of gay role models, which I think had a lot to do with it as well.

[00:14:52] Pepper: Yeah, absolutely. Like you mentioned, we are sort of conditioned to hide. And part of that conditions us to hide our emotions, our feelings, and times when we are experiencing anxiety. So, unfortunately, many gay men suffer through their bouts of anxiety or depression or whatever they’re going through in that particular moment or era of their lives, silently, because we weren’t taught that our emotions are valid or we were taught that we need to be tougher and that’s many men struggle with not just queer men, but I think it is exacerbated for us because it was silent. Silent in sex ed, the feelings that we were discovering silent in PE and more physical activities where we felt uncomfortable, or maybe we felt aroused or curious about the men around us, but we knew we couldn’t say anything about us or else who knows what would happen mentally, physically. There’s a lot of times in my life where I know I was feeling something, but I couldn’t tell anyone or didn’t feel comfortable telling anyone. And I’ve had to come a long way and still do have to go a long way, voicing when I do now, presently, still feel those feelings of anxiety or from having a rough day. It’s not something that’s innate to me to reach out to the very supportive people I’m blessed to have in my life. I know they’re there, but I can feel like I’m being a burden. I can feel like they don’t want to hear it, even though deep down I know they do. It’s something that many of us have to break out of, and that takes a lot of work and grace and time.

[00:16:40] Michael Diiorio: Yeah. And even if you do that work, it’s still like, like we said at the top of the show here, anxiety will still show up. Like it’s always going to be there. Right. And it’s. It’s really about managing it. So we’ll get into some of those tools a bit later. But I think, um, both of us are heavy on the Instagram. We both love the IG and our social medias. Um, I think we should talk a little bit about how social media has had an impact on gay anxiety, specifically the anxious gay mind. What do you think?

[00:17:09] Pepper: So many things are flooding into my head right now. In fact, one of the first posts that I’m going to make in this gay good relaunch is about how I’m heading back into the dating sphere, re-entering the dating pool in a very intentional way. Because I went through a breakup last year, the very beginning of last year, and then last March, I felt very overwhelmed by the concept of dating. So specifically talking about dating apps, I’ve now just redownloaded them after deleting them, I believe, in March of 2023. So almost a full year off of those apps, because I was in a place where I was overly critical of my profile, trying to get the very perfect descriptions up there, the best photos. When, as discussed already in this podcast, we’re such complex creatures. You’re never going to get a perfect depiction of who you are with just six photos and three or four little areas to put some text in. But I found that very overwhelming to come off as my best self. And as gay men, we can be guilty of being perfectionists at times or just really afraid of showing flaws. And that’s still something I’m working through, particularly still discussing dating apps. It’s overwhelming.

You’re putting yourself out there in a way where you don’t know. And I think we’ve talked about this a little bit on the Grindr podcast, so go back to check out that one. But we talked about you don’t know where someone else is, a on their dating journey, and b just physically in that time and space. When you’re sending that first message like, hey, you’re handsome, what’s going on? You don’t know if they’re having a bad day, or if they’re swamped at work, or if they’re busy enjoying their lives. But the way that you take that potential, perceived rejection or that lack of answer or response can have an effect on you. So for me, when coming to engage in a dating setting on social media, or even just reaching out to collaborate, getting to know someone, the amount of time someone can take to respond to can definitely be something that weighs on you. Another area that pops up into mind is just how truly overwhelming it is to scroll on social media these days. Political reasons, so much going on in the world, our communities, rights away, left and right attacks that still happen.

Just a few days ago, I had the pleasure of going to an event here in West Hollywood at Hart nightclub. It was for the Drew project, which started after the Pulse nightclub shooting in 2016.

And although I was very grateful to attend that event and there was so much love in the room, those fears came back into my mind because I grew up in Florida, so I never thought pray for Orlando would be a thing. And even though I’m very happy to share and spread awareness about what happened, and I think it’s very important, especially in the month of June when that massacre did occur and it is pride month, to discuss, it still sends chills down my body to think about that. And if you’re not prepared to go into that space when you’re clicking through social media just looking at your friends’ photos, you can still be faced with posts that remind you about how fragile our community remains to be. Despite all of the progress that’s been there, that has been something that I’ve realized that for myself, I need to take breaks from social media. I try my best not to be on it right before going to bed because I know that’ll impact my sleep, which definitely impacts my anxiety levels. So two things that came up immediately to me are potential judgments and being over critiquing of yourself on dating apps. And two, just how much we’re faced with emotionally, politically, X, Y and Z. All the above when we open these apps.

[00:21:12] Michael Diiorio: All of the above. Yeah. And I would say. I would add onto that the what, how. What comes up for me and a lot of my clients is what I call compare and despair.

So looking on, let’s say, an Instagram looking at someone’s life, looking at their feed, looking at whatever, their house, their vacation, their boyfriend, their body, whatever, and then your anxious mind loves that. Your anxious mind just uses all that and like, ooh, look how good they’re doing. They’re doing so much better than you. Like, it creates this deep sense that we can. I can’t keep up. I hear that a lot. Like, I can’t keep up. Like, there’s just. There’s this, like, level that we think that we have to attain of, like, I don’t know, gayness or like, what being a gay man looks like in 2024, I’m not sure. But it’s the sense of, like, not doing enough to keep up. I’m not enough. I’m not hot enough, I’m not young enough, I’m not rich enough, I don’t go on enough vacations. I’m not doing all the things. I don’t have, the social status, whatever your story is, all of the above, your anxious gay mind will take other people’s perceived. I’m going to air quotes here for those who can’t see me perceived goodness and how great air quotes their life is, and use that to beat the shit out of yourself.

[00:22:18] Pepper: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Something that comes to mind with that is, I think I talked about this on another podcast, but I used to look at my explore page and guess what? It was a bunch of Hawkeyes with apps. And yes, there is a great part of me that’s like, bring it on, yummy. And then there’s a part of me that’s like, oh, I don’t look like that. I don’t think that’s attainable.

And that would definitely weigh on me, especially when I was in my earlier twenties. I’d say 23, 24, right around when we met, actually. I think that’s when I had the lowest self-esteem when it came to body, and I was at my highest potential angst meter, again, not a professional if you can’t tell.

Going through and seeing these profiles that, again, are carefully curated, editing comes into play. What’s real, what’s fiction, what’s fact comes into play. And that’s not something I was necessarily thinking of when I was younger.

These are posts that I’ve come to talk about on the gay good. My biggest post of all time was on that exact topic of body issues and what we’re seeing on the apps and what it can make you internalize and feel when seeing this and being bombarded with the ideal gay body day in and day out, and what’s celebrated and what’s not celebrated. And that’s stuff that, although I know I’ve done a lot of work in this area, physically and mentally, especially mentally, of course, that still weighs on us. We’re human beings and we want to connect and we want to feel like we matter. We want to feel desired in a number of ways. And social media, like you said, you said, was it compare and despair?

[00:24:01] Michael Diiorio: Despair. Compare and despair and despair.

[00:24:04] Pepper: That can be a very slippery slope, especially as gay men, because, let’s face it, a lot of the role models, a lot of the people we do see in entertainment and cinema, on magazines, on porn websites, if we’re being real, they look a specific way. And that pressure confounded with everything else you’ve already discussed. Finances, political turmoil, potential family issues, health issues.

That’s a lot.

[00:24:34] Michael Diiorio: It is, yeah.

[00:24:36] Pepper: Sometimes you’ve got to turn off these apps, hit not interested as much as you may be, just to create a social media profile or sort of like, environment for yourself that you feel comfortable jumping into.

[00:24:53] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, exactly. And so it’s that perfect storm, right? Like you said, you just kind of named them all. And I would add one more to that. Again, this is, at the risk of going on in hole is loneliness and the lack of connection. I would say it’s probably the biggest pain point. And we’ve done two episodes on this topic in January, which I recommend. If you’re listening to this, go back and listen to those. It’s called finding connection in the gate community, part one and two. But if you add that to the mixed, you know, we have this perfect storm of, like, if you’re a gay man listening to this and you feel anxious, like, no fucking kidding, like, welcome to the club. Like, this is a very real thing that we have to deal with.

[00:25:30] Pepper: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:25:32] Michael Diiorio: Yeah. And then I would add, you know, the good thing is that there are support systems in places like where I live in Toronto, where you live in LA. But for a lot of people out there all over the world, they don’t have the same supports if they don’t live in a big city or if they don’t live in a country where that’s a thing. This podcast, for a lot of people is their support. The Gay Men’s Brotherhood Facebook group is their support. So I want to, you know, for everyone out there who’s not in a big gay urban center, I hear you, too. We see you. We hear you. And, like, you know, I understand that that adds even more. So there are a lot of reasons why our anxious gay minds are very alive and well, shall we say?

[00:26:09] Pepper: Yeah.

[00:26:10] Michael Diiorio: So, Pepper, let’s make it personal. Oh, sorry. Did you want to say something?

[00:26:13] Pepper: No, I’m just. I’m feeling a little overcome at the moment because we all really go through this, you know, and I’m feeling that. And sometimes I lose sight of the fact how privileged we are to be in these centers and to be able to go out and meet people like us. And my heart just goes out to people that feel lonely and are experiencing loneliness.

I know I still experienced that, and I’m so fortunate to have the support groups I’ve been privileged to make here in Los Angeles. And, yeah, I just want to take a moment to echo what you say and remind people that are listening to this that you aren’t alone.

Our DMs are open.

There’re people out there that are supporting for you and rooting for you.

[00:27:03] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, very well said and very true.

Let’s take it. Let’s take it personally. So, as much as you want to share, and I’ll share as well. How do you specifically experience anxiety and what triggers your anxiety?

[00:27:19] Pepper: I’d say I’ve experienced a ton of anxiety in my life, and for a long time, I didn’t know exactly that what I was experiencing was anxiety.

I have a very bad relationship with mortality, and I think that has to do a lot with being fearful. Growing up is. I would take it to extremes. And I still have issues on transportation. I am deathly afraid of airplanes. And even though I have my little rituals that help me get through the flight, I hold a stuffed animal. I will probably be holding that stuff in wall until I am my fifties, sixties, seventies. Macaulay is coming with me. I listen to the same music that’s somewhere that I specifically feel a lot of anxiety, especially before a big trip.

Finances have always been an issue for me growing up.

It can be very consuming, especially living in a city as expensive as Los Angeles, keeping up with rent, changing jobs back and forth. That’s sort of where I’m on right now. And that’s been my specific anxiety for the last month and a half, because I have had a few changes in my work routine and how much money I’m making and how much I’m spending out.

That’s been something I’ve been dealing with. To me, anxiety feels all consuming. I was just having this conversation with my roommate the other day.

Sometimes it gets the best of me, and I have to come to peace with the fact that I’m not going to get the best of it every single day, although I can work on it and we’ll get to some coping mechanisms. But I think it was last Sunday I had a day of not doing anything, which is okay, but it’s because that day I was very paralyzed by fear and I felt unprepared for the day.

So I kind of rolled myself up on my couch. I watched probably ten episodes of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

And that day my anxiety got the best of me. But it’s something I’ve been on a journey with for a very long time. And I think 23-year-old me would have felt a lot of shame about that day, perhaps could have let that day become a week. But 27-year-old me acknowledged that that day the anxiety won.

But tomorrow was a new day. So I said, before I go to bed, the very least I can do is plan out my morning so I’m better prepared and I’m more equipped to start out my day and we’ll get again into coping mechanisms in just a bit. But, yeah, I have gone through a lot of bouts with deep, deep anxiety in my life. There are times, specifically during the pandemic and deep lockdown that I had insomnia, was not sleeping for days at a time, and that really was confounded because I was learning what health anxiety is. And that’s something which ties into my fear of travel and things out of my control.

I was that kid that as soon as anything was remotely wrong with me, especially in college, when I was away from my parents’ urgent care immediately. And, you know, I had some doctors sort of laugh at me, which didn’t feel good. A few instances, I feel like there was a potential homophobic energy to it, which then again, makes you mistrust doctors and the medical system.

My specific areas of anxiety that do the most damage to me are finances, health, and let’s stick with those two. And I think that comes from which I touched upon earlier, that constant fear that looking over your shoulder, that not feeling secure.

And I still feel a little bit just talking about it right now, but I know I’m in a safe space. So again, thank you for being here with me. Appreciate you, Michael, and all those listening, because, you know, I’m rooting for y’all, and I know you’re rooting for me as well. So thank you for giving me the space and, you know, some time with my words as I try to communicate, you know, these tough feelings. But those are definitely the two areas that I find the most difficult to get through, is bouts with health and finances, specifically on health. One more thing I want to say is I’ve come a long way since learning what health anxiety is. I remember may of 2020, right around the time I started the gay good. I went on a deep dive about, you know, what a hypochondriac is, what people, and again, not here to diagnose anyone or myself, but learning that I wasn’t the only person that was quick to run to a website or a doctor at the first sign of anything out of the ordinary was very helpful for me, talking about it online with others, being able to share my experiences. There’re times where I almost fainted in college because I was convinced, I had bacterial meningitis, which I know sounds outrageous, but in that moment, you couldn’t tell me that’s not what was happening now, because I’ve done the work and I’m a lot more grounded and aware of what I’m experiencing, even when I am panicked.

And I’ve even shared with you today, there are some real medical things I’m now struggling with in my life. I’m a lot more secure and reasonable about what’s going on, where I should go for information, where I should avoid to look for information.

And I think I’ll cap it there. But the last thing I will say is it’s all a work in progress. Anxiety, I know, is something that’s going to be a part of my life, for all of my life, and there’s that. But I’ve come to a point where I live with it, but I’m not ruled by it. And I don’t think I could have said that three, four, five years ago.

[00:33:38] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, and that’s a beautiful way to say it. I love that. I think that’s going to be very helpful for people out there. I have a follow up question that I think will also be helpful. So we’re talking about anxiety, and what I know is that anxiety and all emotions manifest and feel very differently to each individual person. So, for you, how do you know when you’re feeling anxious? Is it a feeling in your body? Is it a thought? Is it a combination of both? Tell us how you recognize anxiety.

[00:34:04] Pepper: I.

It’s funny that you ask this, and my friends can tell when I’m having sort of a panicky moment. Again, clearly not a professional here, panicky moment. I kind of do, like a slow vogue. I feel very stiff in my body, and for those of you that can see us, like, I sense myself literally stretching out. And I think that’s my body’s way of trying to regain control, trying to stop something fatal from occurring. But I’ve always noticed that when I’m at my most anxious, when I feel panic, that I get very, very stiff. And sometimes I contort my body in dramatic ways, which may not happen to everyone, but I love the flair of the dramatics, and that’s how it happens to me. I feel very, very stiff. But when I’m in areas where, let’s say, it would be weird and not socially acceptable to be doing all of that with my hands, it is still a very innate, nuanced stiffness that I feel, particularly around my extremities, my hands, my fingers, feet, and especially my neck and shoulders. I think that’s one of the reasons I still have a pretty terrible posture, is from all that time that I’ve tensed up over the years growing up, especially because I was a taller kid and did not want to be seen and wanted to hide. So although all the boys eventually matched up and surpassed me when I was younger, elementary through, I’d say halfway through middle school, I definitely remember crouching down to be smaller and be less seen and less visible.

[00:35:49] Michael Diiorio: Fascinating. See? And for me, I wouldn’t say that any of those are the ways that manifests for me in my body. For me, I know it’s anxiety. Usually when my, like, palms will get sweaty. That’s how it’s kind of it. That’s nerve nervousness. Uh, and then my mind is. My mind already thinks very fast. If you guys think I talk fast, and I know you do, because you always tell me I talk too fast. But you, if you could imagine my mind, it is like. Like, constant. And so for me, anxiety sounds very fast and loud. And then in my body, I feel it a little bit in my stomach, like a heaviness in my stomach, almost like fear, but added with a sweaty palm or just, I start to sweat in general. And that’s how that’s why I know I’m like, oh, this is anxiety. Hello, anxiety. Welcome back.

[00:36:37] Pepper: It’s funny because I feel. I think I feel pulled instead of hot and sweaty.

[00:36:42] Michael Diiorio: I think.

[00:36:44] Pepper: I need a blanket.

[00:36:45] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, that’s fascinating. So, for everyone out there, ask yourself that question. How do you know when it’s anxiety? How do you recognize. It’s a really good question. Um, so some of the ways that I. I want to share as well, some of the ways that I feel anxious in my day to day. Um, for me, it’s when my mind is off into the future is if worrying about things that haven’t happened yet or aren’t true, and I’m what effing? But what if this and what if that and what if this and what if that? And I should do that and I should.

Constant barrage of what effing. And so for me, what helps is to kind of bring myself into the. Into the present moment.

Um, and there’s a lot of ways that you can do that. So we can start talking about some techniques. I’ll share. I’ll share some with you. That if you are someone who, like me, kind of gets anxious thinking into the future, and that’s where your anxiety shows up, is when you’re off into the future where you don’t have any control, you got to bring yourself back to the present. So there’s a few methods. Uh, one is, uh, a mindfulness technique called three, three, three techniques. It can be done anywhere at any time, which is why I love it. And so, for me, who’s someone who’s on the go constantly, all the time, um, I love this. So, it’s basically getting present with the present moment and identifying three things you can see and actually getting present with those things.

Then three things you can hear. So, three different sounds in that exact moment that you can hear. I and then three different things that you can touch. And this is a mindfulness exercise called three, three techniques. Another one that helps me is a body scan. So, this is. This I do when I’m not on the go. This I do when I’m at home alone. It’s easier for me to do there. It’s where I’m systematically focusing on different parts of my body from head to toe. So I will, like, bring presence and attention to the top of my head and just work my way down my body, and I’ll think about, you know, my hands and my elbows, and I’ll just feel, like, bring presence to them, and it naturally just calms me down. So this is really helpful for anyone who experiences physical symptoms of anxiety, such as tension, like pepper was saying, or like me, stomach discomfort or anything like that. It really helps calm your body down. And then another very popular one is breath work. And there’s lots of different ways you can do breathe work. Some common ones that a lot of people use are the four seven eight techniques, which is you breathe. You inhale for four counts, hold for seven, and then exhale for eight. Another one is five, five, 5 seconds, inhale, 5 seconds, exhale. There’re tons of these, and there’s really no right or wrong way to do it. But what the point of breath work is, is that it regulates your nervous system. It sends a signal to your body that you’re safe. So your body doesn’t need to, like, send out these stress responses anymore, because you’re breathing, you’re safe.

And, yeah, that. That’s. Those are some ways to get into the present moment. But let’s talk a little bit about some other techniques, pepper, that you use when you’re feeling anxious in the moment.

[00:39:30] Pepper: Yeah, absolutely. And I use all of those, by the way, so I’m really glad you mentioned that, especially the three, three. I remember reading about 54321, which is super similar. I think it’s five things you can see, four you can hear, three you can touch, two you can smell, and one you can taste. And that worked wonders for me a couple years ago when I was really going through it mentally. So thank you for sharing that. You know, I wanted to talk about a little bit about lifestyle changes you can make when you’re having particularly anxious week or an anxious era in your life.

One is journaling. That’s something I do every single Tuesday. So I did it right before jumping on this podcast with you. It’s very important to me in those journals, you know, I let my mind run free. I don’t avoid the topics that are causing me concern or pain, potential anguish. I’ve also once written a letter to anxiety in my journal when I was around 23 or 24. And, you know, I go back and I read that, I’d say every, every six months or so, at least twice a year I read it.

And I feel so proud of myself when I read it, because I don’t think I ever thought I’d be capable of doing that. And so many of the messages in that letter, which are very personal, still ring true about how I accept that anxiety is a part of my life, but I’m gonna kick it’s ass. Okay.

Other ways that I try to be intentional with my days are knowing when I’m more anxious. So not just where it manifests, but when. For me, I know I’m at my most anxious in the morning. And that kind of goes back to what I was saying about my anxiety. Getting the best of me is if I start a morning anxious, I don’t have anything planned or prepared. It can get the best of me. But I know if I focus on my sleep, if I have at least two things in my mind that I want to do as soon as I wake up and they don’t have to be work productive, it can be a walk, it can be reaching out to a friend. Just something in my mind that will get me out of my bed, out of my thoughts, into my body. That’s very productive to me.

Having a plan for the morning, which again is when I feel my most anxious or vulnerable to anxiety.

What else do I do in my life? Let me look over my little notes. Spending time with my passions.

My keyboard is staring at me right across the room. I can’t tell you how many times after a stressful shift or you know, a week like the ones I’ve been having, I’ll just spend 2 hours there. Not trying to be a perfectionist, not really going for anything other than just being there with my instrument and something that makes me very happy. I’m very protective of my Sundays. I’m in a gay beach volleyball league here in the city that I’m really proud to be a part of. And when I’m on the court, I feel like a little kid. And that’s when I’m at my happiest. When I’m running around, leaping, diving.

Even in my current job search, I’ve been very protective of those Sundays. Can you work weekends? Yes. But Sunday mornings are sacred to me and that’s not something I’m willing to negotiate. It’s too important and rewarding and fulfilling for me. And it’s also just an amazing space of people that I feel very grateful to have in my life. So spending time with my passions and if you’re listening to this and you don’t know exactly what that is, then I do recommend one again, journaling. Seeing what comes to mind when you ask yourself when are you at your happiest? And two, talking to friends. Ask a loved one, someone that really knows you, when do you see me at my happiest? Because sometimes they’ll have the answers that you have, but you aren’t recognizing. Which leads to, to me, the number one way to cope is conversations like this. I mentioned that innately reaching out, opening up, is not something that is a strength of mine. I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily a strength, but it’s a lot stronger than it used to be. So I’m gonna pat myself on the back for that one. But even last week, when I was having more of a down moment again, that Sunday was still in my mind. I reached out to one of my closest friends and just asked if we can have a night together. We probably talked about everything that was on my mind for 2030 minutes. I was able to vent, feel heard, feel embraced, and then just had a wonderful night. What do you think? Watching Harry Potter is what we decided on, and being able to share what was going on, to hear what’s going on in my friend’s life as well, to connect on a human level, is very rewarding and healing for me. And I think that’s why I was getting a little choked up thinking about, you know, the members of our community that can’t think of someone off the top of my head they can readily go to, because I know how much that means to me and how healing those connections can be. But I think that’s all I prepared. Yeah. Speaking to the loved ones in your lives, taking breaks from the apps again. Sleep, spending time with my passions. And one last one I’ll briefly touch upon is exercise. I talked about this on the gay good. I do go to the gym quite a lot now. And yes, there’s a part of that that’s, you know, there for the gains and there to look at the eye candy.

I’d say 70% of the reason I go to the gym so consistently is to break away from the routine, to get away from my phone, to get those endorphins to go for a run, and to feel capable and powerful in ways that I don’t always feel. So having, I’d say, an hour of physical activity five days a week, I’d say, is important for me. So for me, that’s volleyball, days in the gym, hiking, getting in touch with nature, and these are all things, as mentioned back to journaling that I had to find out for myself. Looking back, it seems easy now that I know these are the things that work for me. But there was a time I couldn’t answer that question. How do you cope? So, for anyone listening that is feeling perhaps trapped or they don’t necessarily have their finger, you know, on the page of what’s going to be beneficial for them, I definitely recommend taking a moment with yourself to ask yourself those questions. And again, talking to someone else, because perhaps they have the answers for you beautifully.

[00:46:29] Michael Diiorio: Very well said.

I would agree with a lot of that for me as well.

Definitely the gym, getting out of my environment, for me, going for walks in nature really helps calm me down. Um, I want to answer this with my coach hat on. So, at the top of the episode, you know, we said that we are not here to diagnose or treat mental health disorders. However, I am absolutely certified in helping clients deal with this kind of anxiety. And I have tools, and I’m certified in them, and I use them all the time. So I have a lot to say on this in the interest of time. I don’t want to go through all of them because we’d be here for a very long time, but I’ll go through a couple of them. Um, and then we can, we can talk more about them. So when it comes to inciting anxiety, it’s important to realize that sometimes it’s an internal issue. Like, it’s a mindset that requires mindset work and thought work. And sometimes it’s an external issue, which means something in your environment needs to change, and sometimes it’s both.

So, in coaching, what I help my do is I help my clients identify which one it is, or both, and understanding the core issue of their anxiety, the source of it, so that we can take the right strategy. So what works for me personally is in the mindset, work is understanding anxiety. So if you ever watch the movie inside out, have you seen that? Yeah, I love it. So I imagine a little anxious man in my head, just like a little inside out character who is just the source of all of my anxious thoughts and everything. Right? And so for me, my job, and what has really helped me, a lot of my clients, is understanding him, listening to him, and almost, you might say, befriending him. And I have a lot of tools and worksheets, like hundreds, I would say tools and worksheets in my coaching toolkit. And the number one that I use the most often, bar none, is developing your relationship with anxiety. It is a one-page worksheet which blows my mind, and it’s seven questions. I take my client through it, and usually it takes, it’s about half hour process.

My clients listening to me, you know exactly which one I’m talking about. Um, but the goal here, the goal of that worksheet is to listen to your anxiety instead of pushing it away, instead of numbing it with. Take your pick of what we can numb with food substances, drugs, sex, work, shopping, take your pick. So instead of numbing it, we listen to what it’s trying to tell you. Right? That’s the goal. The goal is to listen to it and not to run away from it. And so that’s kind of the mindset work that we would do. Um, in response to anxiety, there are four things you can do, okay? One, you could avoid it, so you numb it away with food, drugs, alcohol, sex, apps, social media, shopping, work, all of the things. So I’d rather. So, basically, the subconscious thing is I’d rather not feel anxious. So I’m going to turn to this thing over here, which is going to feel like relief. Air quotes, relief. But it’s not actual relief. It just exacerbates the issue because the anxiety doesn’t go away. Okay, so that’s option one, you can avoid it. Option two is you can react to it.

So you lash out at other people. Your anxiety is all over you. You are railing against life. You’re just making a mess of your life. Your relationships are self-sabotage going on, and that’s when you’re reacting to it from an unconscious reaction. I’ll say not a conscious reaction. Okay.

The third option is to resist it, which is basically just to pretend it’s not there. Just cover your ears, cover your eyes, and, like, la la, la, la la. It’s not here. And that just creates a lot of tension. And the way I like to describe it is imagined that anxiety is trying to walk through a door, trying to open a door and walk into your life to tell you something important. And you’re holding that door shut. You’re, like, forcing all of your willpower against this door to hold it shut. It’s going to be exhausting, right? So that doesn’t feel good. So those are three options. The fourth option, of course, is the one that we want to go through, and that’s the one to allow it, to process it, to identify what you’re feeling, acknowledge it for what it is, allow it to be there. And for that, I have a process that I use which I can go through quickly.

So first thing you want to do is identify it in the mind. So that’s why I asked you earlier, Pepper, how do you know you’re feeling anxiety? That’s a question I ask because you want to be able to say, oh, here it is. This is anxiety. Welcome to welcome. Like, I imagine it knocking on the door, like, letting, like, wanting to come in. Like, oh, anxiety’s here at the party, right? So you want to say to yourself. I am feeling anxious. And it’s important to say I am feeling anxious, not I am anxious because it is just a feeling. It is not an identity.

Okay. Then what we do, and we’ve done this already with you, is we describe how it feels in the body. So getting into the observer mode. So exactly what I do with you is, you know, where do you feel it in your body? How do you know it’s there? You know, describe it to me. Is it hot? Is it cold? Is it somewhere in your body? Is it big? Is it small? And this really is a method to get you into the observer mode of your emotions so that you’re not in your emotions. You are feeling your emotions. Again, different things. Right?

I’m going through this very quickly, but it’s a much slower process when we do it in person or in this session. And then the third thing is you just want to allow it to be there, which sounds very simple and easy, but it’s not. You just want to allow it to be there. And the way I describe an emotion, any emotion, but anxiety in this case, is like a wave, kind of washes up, comes it grows, it grows, it crests, it gets really big and scary.

And if you can just stay with it, it eventually will fall away. It takes time. It’s not as fast as I’m doing it here, of course, but if you can stay with it, it might be a few minutes, it might be more than that, right? But either way, it will go away. Emotions do not last forever. They are fleeting. Okay, so I like to use a mantra in that moment that says, my feelings are meant to be felt. I am worth feeling these feelings. My feelings are valid. Something like that. Which, again, sends the message to yourself that this is just a temporary emotion that you’re feeling and will survive it. And then the last part is, once you’ve gone through that is receive the message. So the question is, what is your anxiety trying to tell you? What does it need you to know right now? So once you stop railing against it and numbing it, you can just be calm and be like, yes, anxiety. What would you like me to know? Right. And it’ll tell you something. I want you to, you know, be very careful going on that date with that guy. I want you to not put your pictures up on Grindr because everyone’s going to make fun of you, and you’re going to get rejected and you’re going to get hurt. Typically, your anxiety is there to try to protect you from something, a perceived threat. So once we have that. Then the magic starts. Okay, now let’s start going through it. And that’s where we can really do some work to get to the source of it. And is it a valid threat? If it is, what can we do about it? Is it not a valid threat? If not, then, like, how do we. How do we nurture that anxiety and say, hey, listen, buddy, thank you so much, you know, not needed today. You’re good to go. You know, we can let you out. And it really depends, and I don’t want to say that every situation is the same. It really, really depends on your situation and how it’s manifesting for you and what’s going on in your life. So, yeah, from there, we. We continue. Uh, I hold the space with lots of love, compassion and courage. Uh, the good thing is, once I teach you how to do this and we do this more slowly, of course, it develops resilience so that you can be doing this on your own. And you have these tools, self-coaching tools to develop on your own, and you can do them without me having to be there. And the great thing is it develops compassion for yourself.

And when other people are feeling anxious, you have so much more compassion and empathy for them.

[00:53:52] Pepper: That’s awesome.

Yeah, you should really proud of that.

That whole process, like we’ve mentioned a few times already, it takes a lot of time. And I think the most important thing you said is acknowledging and welcoming anxiety into the party. It’s going to be there whether you like it or not. Sometimes you can’t really close the door. It’s going to get in, maybe through the window. But how you react to it and how you accept the fact that, you know, it’s trying to crush the party is where the breakthroughs happen. And when you have the power to, you know, call it an Uber and wish it well on its way, I like that.

[00:54:36] Michael Diiorio: I’m going to use that as well. And again, I want to reiterate that this is not. I’m not speaking on behalf of people who have, like, an anxiety disorder. That’s a different thing. That’s not what I’m talking about. This might not work for that. Right. You might need medication, treatment, another plan for that. I’m talking about that general, garden variety anxiety that we have from day to day.

Yeah. Okay. Pepper, do you have any other tips, tools, techniques that you could offer that have worked for you or that maybe you’ve seen elsewhere?

[00:55:03] Pepper: Yeah, I think something for me, instead of just being honest with myself, is being honest with other people about where they’re meeting me at. So even with today, when we first got on this call, before we started recording, how are you? I said, you know what, I’ve been better, but I’m happy to be here, which is very honest.

I’m not having the time of my life right now, and I’m including you in that. I think greetings are so formulaic and expected, and they’re just pleasantries.

But moments like that, I used to get even more anxious going to a party or feel more anxiety having to answer the how have you been? Question like, oh, I’ve been fine. Things are good when I know I’m lying. And that then starts another process in me which can make me experience more anxiety. So when, if comfortable, if feeling secure with the people that you are around is letting them know what’s going on.

And it doesn’t have to be deep, but just a general idea so you don’t feel like, again, as gay men, that we’re hiding, we’re editing, we’re afraid to be our authentic selves, even if that authentic self today is feeling anxious or feeling a little down or not thinking of themselves in the best light that day. That’s definitely helped me through many scenarios. I think even in having this podcast, being able to come in and, and letting you know where I was at and having a quick discussion on that was, you know, beneficial. And if I came in here and said, everything is great, let’s do this, there’s nothing wrong. I have no flaws that would have made for a very different discussion, and I would have been failing very differently internally, as opposed to as relaxed as I am feeling right now. So meeting people where they’re at and bringing yourself as you are to the table is important. And with that, turning that around and as you mentioned, the more compassion and more understanding and more processing of your own feelings that you can have, you can then give so, to others, which can lead us to a conversation on how we best care for each other and understand each other as complex people living with highs and lows in our lives, living with all these feelings, especially in these trying times, is important. So opening that up is asking people with true intentions, like, how are you? What’s been going on? If someone answers with, perhaps things have been okay, feel free to ask a follow up question. What’s on your mind? You know, the more intentional, the more human we can be with each other, especially in our community, is powerful.

Something I’m trying to do in my life is create more opportunities like this, to have open discussions, to sort of bring what I do online to a physical place. Something I’m excited to do in my volleyball league this year is I’ve taken a little leadership position as social director. And twice a season I’m going to have host an attempt to lead conversations like this with as many participants as would like to join.

And those conversations are going to be very intentional, not just how what’s going on today, but what are we dealing with? Are there any discussions that we want to have as a community of people that care about each other? How do we move and progress our league where there’s not many women in our league? And that’s something I want us to discuss in person. How do we make this space more open, seem more inviting and welcoming to queer women is something that I’m really focused on this year. And we wouldn’t get there without having open lines of discussion. And in again, meeting people where they are and bringing yourself authentically as you are to discussions, I think is very powerful, impactful, and I think has helped us today the two of us have a productive conversation where we feel safe to open up, to share, and to be.

[00:59:34] Michael Diiorio: Yeah, very well said. And I love that, that asking people how they are, but also the other side of that is being very honest. So all the gays out there, everyone listening here, we have to quit this performative nonsense, that it just exacerbates this sense of pressure that, oh, everyone else’s life is perfect except for mine. We have to stop that right now. I’m not saying that you just let it all out with someone you just met, but where you feel comfortable and safe to feel a little vulnerable, to say, you know what, actually, I haven’t had the greatest day today. I’m actually going through a little something right now. I don’t feel great. Here’s what’s going on. Like, it, first of all, is very powerful to just like say that it feels really good and really relieving, but it also tells other people like, oh, hey, wait a minute, so do I. And it creates that space where we can connect with each other and that’s what we all want, right? We all want authentic connection. If you want that authentic connection, we have to be very honest and real with each other. And so, yeah, we have to stop this performativeness.

That’s why I love this podcast, because people will think, oh, Matt, Michael or Reno, whoever is on here, Pepper, they’re talking about these things. So they have it all together. Absolutely not. We do not have it all together.

[01:00:47] Pepper: From the truth, right?

[01:00:49] Michael Diiorio: We’re just willing to talk about it, and that’s all that is. So, yeah, I think that normalizing it is what will help each other deal with gay anxiety, the anxious gay mind.

[01:01:02] Pepper: Yeah. And I think that goes back even more so to social media. Just about what we post.

We post. Something I’ve posted about a couple of times in my stories is I refuse to use filters, even if there’s a zit, even if I’m not feeling my best, even if, you know, I’m not gonna lie. Sometimes my hair looks luscious, looks beautiful. Sometimes we’re given what we’re given today, it’s a little shaky. That’s okay, because I know there’s a lot of younger queer eyes on my page.

And I think, I don’t know if I could have survived middle school and high school without the emphasis on social media. And looking a certain way is now when I was going through those years. So I think that goes back to the performative and the edited and the picture perfect is allowing myself to look like exactly what I look like that day. Sometimes I’m going to lean into it and I think I’m looking great. Some days I’m not feeling that way as we all do. And it’s important to allow that and allow us to look human and potentially tired and great and sexy and all ways that we can look like in one day on social media.

[01:02:16] Michael Diiorio: I love it and feel right and feel not great. Sometimes you can feel super successful and, like, sexy, and other days you feel like you’re a mess. And that’s okay, right? Yeah. Okay, Pepper, this has been very enlightening. I’m sure people will want to connect with you. So where can they find you?

[01:02:32] Pepper: Yes, you can find me. He gave good on Instagram. And if you want to follow my personal account, feel free to as well. It’s pepper time. But if you want to see me specifically for conversations, post like this. Follow me. Good. Again, we’re relaunching this week with more content, more lives, more intentional ways to authentically connect with each other. That’s what I’m most excited about. And, you know, I was having a conversation today with a photographer friend of mine. We took a few photos for basically a reintroduction post I want to make. I’m like, why not just take a few pictures here and there, spice it up just a little bit. And halfway through the photo shoot, he was like, you know what? You’re not. You know, we’ve done photos before, and I feel like there’s the light isn’t behind your eyes, as it usually is. And I had to tell him, you know what? I’m not having the best week. It feels a little strange to be launching this account this week. But then it dawned on me. That’s exactly why I should continue with this deadline that I set forth for myself. Because as mentioned many times and will continue to be message mentioned, we do not have it all figured out. So how dare I pretend like I do when I’m fostering a space where I’m encouraging people to come as they are and to be open. So again, at the gay. Good. Excited to see you guys there. And Michael, thank you so much again for having me today. It’s always a pleasure to spend time with you.

[01:03:59] Michael Diiorio: Likewise. And you know, I agree, it’s nice. It’s nice to have these deeper conversations. And I also like the not so deep conversations, the fun ones. They’re all good to me. But thank you for joining us. And thank you for being so vulnerable and so courageous with your own experience and your own tips and techniques as well.

[01:04:14] Pepper: Happy to.

[01:04:15] Michael Diiorio: Okay, guys, so for our audience, thank you for keeping up with us. Thank you for sticking through. We’ve had a great time here today. Hopefully you got a lot of good things out of this episode. It might be one where you want to go back and listen to it again. I know a lot of people out there listen to these episodes and they go back and listen to it again and take notes. I love that. I love hearing that you guys do that. By all means, please do also give us a review and a rating that helps us a lot in terms of getting this podcast out into the ears of people who need it the most. So leave us a great review. Five-star rating. If you’re watching us on YouTube, feel free to ask Pepper or I any questions. We will be in the comments. We’ll be checking those.

And lastly, if you are concerned about your anxiety again, I will put some resources in the show notes. If you still don’t know, by all means, please contact me. I can help you. I can point you in the right direction. I have a lot of resources in my network of psychologists there, therapists, queer affirming people who can help you out. So if it’s not me, I can definitely point you in the right direction. Okay, guys, thanks for joining us on this episode, and we’ll see you next time. Bye.