One of the most common forms of sexual shaming we see in the gay community is towards bottoming. The closed-minded narratives that are perpetuated around receptive anal sex reflect a patriarchal belief system that inhibits our growth as a community.
In this episode, we’re tackling the topic of bottom shaming and exploring questions like…
- Where do you think bottom shaming stems from?
- Why do you think bottom shaming keeps being perpetuated in the community?
- How do you think we as a community can start moving away from bottom shaming and start empowering ourselves?
Join us as we unpack the causes and effects of sexual shaming and understand how we all play a role in elevating the dialogue around sex and sexuality.
– Connect with us –
All right. Welcome to another episode of gay men going deeper, a podcast series by the gay men’s brotherhood, where we talk about all things, personal development, mental health, and sexuality. Your host today are Michael DiIorio, Matt Lansdale and myself Calan Breckon and collectively we have over 40 years of experience in the personal development world. And if this is your first time listening to us,
we want to welcome you. We each have our own coaching practices, but in this podcast, we are giving away all the good stuff too. Yeah. Today we are going to be talking about bottom shaming and oh my goodness. We’ve been asked about this so much. So this episode has been a long time coming. We are going to be exploring questions.
Like where do you think bottom shaming stems from? Why do you think bottom shaming keeps being perpetuated in the gay community? And how do you think we, as a community can start moving away from bottom shaming and start empowering ourselves and those of us in our community. So we’ll continue these discussions on the last Thursday of every month in the gay men’s brotherhood,
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Now, before we jump into today’s episode, let’s read a review from one of our listeners. This comes from Leonardo on YouTube, and he writes in quotes, empathy deficit in the world.dot.by Calan. Yes, queen you nailed it as usual, really, really good podcast. Darlings keep enlightening our dark world with your light insights and charisma. Well, thank you very much,
Leonardo. And I can’t take full credit for that because empathy deficit is what like I’ve like Brené brown has said that. And so I’m definitely just like reiterating her kind of beliefs and I just very much agree with it, but yes. Thank you so much for that comment, Leonardo. Okay. Bottom shaming, where do we even begin on this topic?
I know there’s a lot. That’s going to come up today. So for me, bottom shaming comes from this notion of it, your, the partner being penetrated and you’re the feminine partner. And in society, we in this society, we grew up being feminine, was looked down upon and it also plays into toxic masculinity of our day. For me,
bottom shaming basically comes down to the place of being a woman is less than being a man and women are penetrated for sex. Therefore, if you are the bottom partner, you’re the woman and therefore you are less than, and it’s perpetuated all through gay culture in a way that we use gay slurs and shade to throw all of the time. Tops are still very much idolized.
A lot of the time, everyone always complains that there aren’t enough tops in the city, at least here in Toronto, that’s a conversation that happens quite often. There is also so many jokes and stereotypes about how bottoms are the clean, neat and tidy home maker types. And that tops have messy rooms and apartments and benefits of giant mess. You know,
the Dick is going to be really great. It is so fucked up, but I hear these kinds of comments being thrown around all the time of the gay community, but I’m really excited about, but I’m really excited to dig into this conversation because we have had so many requests for it. And I really want to know what everybody else’s thoughts on it are.
So let’s start off with the first question that we have, which is where do you think bottom shaming stems from? And I already kind of said my 2 cents on it. So I am going to pass this off to Matt first. Me first. Okay. Well he pretty much said it really. I think I have two words to sum it all up and patriarchal oppression,
right? If you think about it, like the matriarchy has been suppressed and it’s been oppressed by the patriarchy. So, and by that formula don’t understand that terminology. It’s essentially the masculine suppressing, the feminine. And I think we’re seeing a massive shift in this, on the planet right now. And so it’s affecting so many aspects of, of relationships and humanity and the relationship we have to the planet,
the planet being a feminine energy, the moon being a feminine energy, right? Like we’re, we’re governed by these beautiful feminine energies. And so I think that we, as a, as a species has been, we’ve been conditioned to believe that the feminine is somehow less than, and that exactly what you said, we’re attributing bottoming to being receiving and being part of the feminine nature.
So I think that’s, that’s a big part of it. The other aspect, I think for gay men specifically as I think we tend to put straight men on a pedestal and we view straight men as like the top of the food chain and that they’re fucking women and they’re the ones that are giving. And so I think that that’s another one of the areas that we,
you know, idolizing straight men has huge impact on our and the way that we see it. So it’s almost like this notion of like, I’m less gay if I’m the one fucking you. Right. And like a lot of us still, whether we think we do or not, a lot of us still have internalized homophobia. And for me, it’s come through in layers.
I thought 10 years ago I had dealt with my internalized homophobia. I’m not kidding you. And I’m still having things coming up. Another layer just came up recently, like, so it’s, it’s very elusive and it’s very subconscious. And so I do think that, that we, we, we externalize, we project some of that into this space specifically around role sexual roles and how I’m less gay if I just do that,
or I are here, you know, this around like, oh, I’m if, if I’m the guy that is getting my Dick sucked, I’m less homo. Right? Like that sort of mentality, no homo bro. Right. So that sort of mentality. And I just think that it’s, it is, it’s so toxic and it’s so unhelpful and it’s just,
all it’s doing is suppressing our sexual energy and we’re, we’re having a hard time becoming fully empowered into ourselves because of it. So, yeah, I’m very passionate about this topic and I have a lot to say, but I’ll, I’ll leave it there for now because I think we’ve, you know, I don’t want to beat a dead horse. I think it’s pretty cut and clear why we’re like this.
Right. It’s around suppression of feminine. So yeah. Yeah. What about for you, Michael? Yeah. Well, you guys said Same exact same words that I, that I had in mind, a misogynistic cultural norms and beliefs that we’ve inherited from a very outdated society that was massage is the Sergeant a stick, patriarchal, sexist, homophobic a lot of our formal education sex education.
For those of you who had one still is, is all those things homophobic. And even the not so formal education that we get through porn through the media, through our peers also is very how-to hetero doc dominated and massage. So that comes at us from both ends, whether you’re getting the formal education or not. I’d like to think that’s changed. I will say I haven’t been in,
I haven’t been in school a little while, but I hope that has changed. But you know, that society that we are born into, it just creates the conditions that perpetuate shame in general, shame for being gay shame for having an attraction to men, shame for being a sexual being. That’s one that I’m very attracted to or very passionate about is just sexual framing in general.
Like I am a sexual being and I don’t want to be shamed for it. And I don’t think anybody else should shame for being aroused by whatever arouses you all. I shouldn’t like that. No, that’s good. That’s not good shame for masturbation shame for shame, shame, shame, shame, everywhere, shame for enjoying sex too much sex, whatever that means not enough sex for being approved,
whatever that means. So, you know, the shame of enjoying the feeling of a Dick in your ass, like why, why should there be shamed for that? It feels really fucking, is there People are starting to realize that though they are starting to face it out. There’s so much shame about, about all these things that feel great. And a lot of,
I mean, people who follow me on my Instagram, I talk about this a lot. And I, I too am very passionate about it because it’s been a big part of my personal journey is being steeped and covered in all the shame for, for just existing as a sexual being. And I had to go through all of that. And now I’m at a point where I am shame less and I say that in a good way,
a shameless, meaning I don’t have as much shame as that. Well, very little, especially on the topic of sex, but not when I say shameless, that that has a negative connotation. I do not mean boundary-less, I have very clear boundaries, but there’s not a lot of shame. So yeah, I think everything that you guys said, it’s just the society that we were born and raised in and we’d have a lot of work to do.
So hopefully this podcast can help and I want to continue on with this and add onto it because in the intro I talked about, you know, being the penetrative, being the receiver, but that in a city like Toronto, a large majority of people that I talked to our bottoms, like I would say significantly known are the bottoms. And like it’s rare.
And few and far between that there’s these tops yet. They’re the ones that were idolizing. And then I’m just looking at it and being like, well, if the bottoms are the masses, why aren’t we appreciating ourselves? And why are we still shaming ourselves about it? And why are we still layering all this crap on top of ourselves, looking at ourselves as less than I think it really does go back to the patriarchy of like,
well, you’re the woman and the woman is less than, or the feminine energy is less than, and I just going to call bullshit to that right now, because in order to receive like emotionally in order to be that emotional partner where you can open yourself up and receive, and not just in a penetration way, but in a romantic and love connection way in a receiving help and assistance,
it is so difficult. And especially with like the talk of masculinity, it is so difficult for people to equate masculinity and strength, to asking for help and needing help. And I think that that is a part of receiving and that, that plays into this mentality of bottoming. If you’re receiving, you’re asking for it, whereas like, I don’t need to ask for it to be a top,
you know? So what are you guys’ thoughts on that? So much Looking all my notes. I’m like, oh my God, I get so overstimulated. But yeah, it’s funny because I know, I know so many people might, I’m going to categorize this as gay, straight trans. It’s just people that love anal play. Like, it feels fucking fantastic for men or people who identify as men.
The prostate is like equivalent to the G-spot. It’s like, there’s so much pleasure in this one center. Right. And I know a lot of women who I’m very close with and they very transparent with me and their husbands love it right. In heterosexual relationships. So I do think this is changing and people are starting to recognize that, but there’s still gonna be a lot of shame around it.
Right. So it’s like just allowing, you know, and I think that’s why this podcast is going to be really powerful because I think people are going to realize that we don’t have to be buying into these labels anymore. Do you think I just had a thought, do you think, cause like there is this kind of like Renaissance happening with sex and sexuality.
Do you think that like the universe, the greater knowing that we don’t even understand put the RG spot in there on purpose for a reason because eventually he needed, like they knew we would get to this point and be like, no, because not, everybody’s going to need to realize like receiving and being in that vulnerable position in order to, to kind of take down and deconstruct this masculinity energy,
I fully agree. And I think it’s interesting because if you think about the way the planet, the planet has its own intelligence and it knows that this, the population on this planet is getting out of control. So what we’ll see is we’re going to see more gay trans people, queer people coming forward, who aren’t wanting to reproduce and anal sex is one of the best birth controls,
right? You ain’t going to get pregnant doing that. So I would have a lot of children by now. Yeah. Baby Is yours. They’re all, they’re all mine. I think this speaks to the topic of sexual identity. You know, Matt, you’re saying that are a lot of men who identify as straight or joining into play. You know,
I think it’s really important that at least for me, I equated the behavior of, or the act of having anal sex as gay. That means you’re gay, but it’s very important that identity and behavior are two different things. Totally. Very, very important. So I mean, as we, as we define what makes, what makes somebody gay? Is it your attraction to a man or a woman it’s the same sex?
Is that the actual behavior, the act that does it, or is it just until, or is it just when you say I identify as this, this is how I feel inside. And that’s something that I think I want everyone out there to think about because it’s something that I’ve recently just in the last few weeks been thinking about for myself is when did I decide that I was gay?
Was it the attraction? Was that the actor? Wasn’t the, when I actually said the words out loud. So I think it’s very important that we take that time to realize that identity is not the same thing as the Yes. And that’s very important. And I also, because I just did an episode with Jason June about navigating non binary and we had this whole conversation around,
you know, these kinds of topics because I was, you know, it’s coming up so much in the media specifically. Cause you know, you know, in north America we always have to have somebody to hate. And since you know, they’re like, okay, let’s get back to the game. Let’s hate them again. And so are transgender specifically.
There’s a lot of going around transgender because they’re like, okay, well we’ve maybe lost a little bit of the case power. So now we’re going to attack this other community was just so fucked up. But gender and gender identity and expression and experience are all different things. And it’s all the people who are trying to continuously put things in a box that is making it difficult because I get it.
We’re humans. We’d like to be, we’d like things to be concrete and solid so that we can understand them, but we can’t be so rigid in that understanding that we’re not willing to look at other opportunities and other ways to grow because that is the essence of life. We are here to continue to learn and grow and change. It is the only thing that will ever be perpetuated in the world.
And so when it comes down to this gender expression, gender identity and feelings and what you’re talking about, Michael, for me, my understanding of what I’ve taken on board for me that feels right, is that I know if I ever get married, I wanted to marry a man. I know that I want it to be romantically connected with men and romantically in a relationship.
I knew that physically once that started happening, that that was also all like great. And there was some dabbling of like, you know, kissing, holding hands, all that other funds, like stuff that happens over with women that I was just like, this is nice, but this doesn’t feel right for me. And if somebody is out there listening to the podcast,
cause like we could have definitely straight people listening and all these other things, if you like anal play and you like being penetrated, you have adult or hybrid or whatever, that, that concept doesn’t make you gay because you, I always ask somebody because I’ve had these conversations with people before who are curious or they’ve had, they’re like, oh, I,
I, you know, my girlfriends stuck her finger up there and I liked it. Like, what does that mean? And I always ask them, do you want to marry a man? And do you want to have sex with a man only? And do you want to live with a man and have a romantic relationship with a man? If so,
maybe you’re leaning a little bit more towards, maybe you’re in the middle of the spectrum. Maybe you are. But like who knows? But if all those answers are no, then you enjoying this, you enjoying being penetrated is not make you gay. It means you enjoy pleasure because that’s where our G spot is. Right? Exactly. So continuing on with our conversation,
why do you think bottom shaming keeps being perpetuated in our community? Like why do you think? And it goes for everybody, not just the case, but like straight men who enjoy it as well. Like everybody. Why do you think it just keeps going? Let’s go, let’s start off with Michael. What’s your thoughts on it? Lack of education again,
both formally and just in, you know, in, in the media and with our peers and porn, I think there is a lot of work that needs to be done on education. And for a long time, people don’t want to talk about sex. They don’t think a lot of places still think sex should not be taught. And so I think that’s important.
So until we get to the source, which to me would be ignorance until we fix that, then it will continue to be an issue in the community. And then, you know, for, for those of us who are not necessarily that age, where we can be where we’re young, but if you’re still perpetuating those narratives, those old tired narratives that know,
talked about at the beginning, they’re like that it’s less masculine. That that bottoming is for the weak one for the smaller one that makes you more gay and topping as well. Like all that bullshit. If we keep it perpetuating these tired old stories, then that’s why it keeps being perpetuated in the community. I think there is a lot of shame, right?
A shadow to our healing or shame course that would help if everyone took that, that would be a big step in the right direction. But I think as we do that work for people that are listening to those podcasts, I would like to think that they’re probably further along perhaps people who wouldn’t potentially listen to this podcast, but there’s always work to do.
Right. I think I’ll even all three of us here have our own work to do so. Yeah. I would say for me, it’s about education awareness, noticing the narratives that we’re buying into and seeing where, where, and if we are perpetuating I love that. And I also want to give a shout out if you’re listening to this and you have straight friends that you’ve talked to,
like Matt has about like an, I have I’m sure Michael has as well. If you have straight friends who you’ve talked to about this, whether it’s a guy or whether it’s his girlfriend or somebody send them this episode and be like, I feel like you guys should listen to this episode because it can help unpack some of those questions that maybe they have going on in their mind around this topic.
And that can be part of the conversation of moving away from this shame is if more people educate themselves on it, like you were saying, Michael, Yeah, I have one more thing I wanted to add to that actually is, is I think it does help people feel better as they’re coming out in a lot of cultures and everywhere. Like I remember,
I remember me believing that same thing. Like, okay, well I’ll be gay, but I’m going to just pop well, Hey, cause I was terrified of bottoming, but I’m going to just stop. And that was sort of my, like I had that belief too. So I think in some ways it does help people come out. Like it’s sort of like a little bridge for the coming out,
at least from Mulas. And so I think as that’s there, but I felt very unsafe. So you know, that, that was part of it too. I didn’t feel safe to come out. I felt like that’s something I had to do to sort of ease my way into it. So I think as people do use that as a way to feel safer in their coming out or on their sexual journey.
And I guess, because I’ve done it, I can kind of see it and it did help me in a way. So there there’s a bit of a contradiction there, but that did help me eventually once I did bottom and realized how fucking great it was, then, you know, I was like, Hey, well that’s just, that’s just not the right story.
Right. What about you, Matt? What’s your thoughts on, on it? That’s so much. Okay. I think the first thing is similar to what Michael just said is that we like to put ourselves in boxes. So it’s like, I’m a top. And then I know what to expect. It’s like a safety thing. Like we need to know who we are and we need to know who the other person is.
So there’s this notion when you start chatting with somebody, it’s like, what are you? Are you a top or are you a bottom? Let me know. So I know how I can interact with you. And I’m just as guilty of doing that. I understand that, but there’s this obsession with penetration in the gay community. And I think it is come from that heteronormative world where it’s like,
the girl is the, is the bottom. The guy is the top and there’s this, this obsession. And it’s like, I’m starting to and have been exploring tantra for the last couple of years. And it’s like, penetration is like such a small part of sex, like 5%, maybe even less than that 2% of sex. Right. And when you start opening up,
you know, this, this notion of like bringing energetics, bringing intimacy, sensuality, all these things into sex, it’s like two bottoms can have a fucking fantastic time. You know what I mean? But there’s this whole notion of like, if I’m a bottom, like I can only fuck with tops. You know what I mean? And, and this whole thing,
it’s like, no, like there’s so much pleasure. That’s waiting to be had beyond the scope of top versus bottom and like categorizing ourselves in these like little boxes. And I think that that’s part of the shaming is that there’s this hierarchy, that top is the, is the top of the food chain and then verse and then bottom. Do you know what I mean?
And it’s like, we all need to start exploring different avenues of sex. If we want to dispel this myth, that somehow there is this hierarchy, because if you are a bottom and you have shame, what would it be like for you to engage sexually or centrally with another bottom? Right? What would that bring up for you? And that doesn’t mean that that has to be like,
because oftentimes I think people think about relationship like, oh, I’m a bottom. So I would never want to be in a relationship with another bottom, which I get that rational, like thinking, but do we all have to be categorizing our sex based off of relationship that that has to be the outcome, right? Like why can’t you just be in a relationship that doesn’t have to have a cap on it with another bottom and just enjoy whatever sexual pleasure can come from that experience with that person.
Right. We don’t have to make them our person and say, you know, I’m never going to have sex again, a penetrative sex again, if I don’t date a top. Right. So I just think there’s so much there to, to unpack. And then the other thing is this notion around toxic masculinity. I don’t like that term. I don’t use it.
I prefer the term masculinity or performative masculinity because I don’t think there’s anything toxic about masculinity. I think masculinity is beautiful, but it can be overdone. Right? And hyper-masculinity is this notion of like hiding behind our masculinity being overtly masculine. So everyone around me perceives me a certain way, right? Which comes into this whole notion of ego and us bringing our ego into sex and how we want to be perceived a certain way.
And I do think that that’s what a lot of people bring in to that. And then this, the notion of, you know, hypermasculinity the opposite of that is like submission, right? Somebody who is operating within performative or hypermasculinity the last thing they want to be perceived as is weak or submissive. Right? So just again, this, this, this barfy energy that we’re,
we’re constantly being fed by, by the systems, right? Whether it’s government or media or whatever around masculinity, it’s just, it’s really unhelpful to gender expression to embodiment. Right. Cause masculinity is all about mental energy. So it’s like keeping you up here. And in my opinion, sex is just meant to be this fluid exchange between mind and body.
And it’s really hard to engage in that, that fluidity, when we’re so attached to roles and like just this, all this stuff, anyway, it’s very alive for me right now. I’m really navigating a lot of this right now. So it’s like, it’s almost visceral. Like I can feel it in my body. Like just the passion around like dispelling all this crap because it’s,
it’s, I’ve realized how much it’s limited me from being sexually liberated and empowered as a sexual being, because I’ve held on to this notion of topping bottoming. And it’s just, it doesn’t serve me anymore. Like I’m completely done with that whole modality of labeling. I’m allowing my mood, my energy, my partners, whatever comes alive in my body, in the moment.
And some people, if I’m engaging with them sexually, I don’t have a desire to penetrate or be penetrated by them. I want to move with their energy. I want to dance with them. Right. And I’ve had like different connections like that, where sex was not a primary thing that we indulged in. Like I met him when I say that I’ve been talking about penetrative sex and there’s other things that we’ve explored so that the sky’s the limit.
When you stop labeling yourself, I think is what I’m trying to, to get out. And then the last thing I have here is projecting our desires onto others. I think when we are in the top mind and we’re like, oh, I don’t know how you could bottom right. Would be so painful or it’s so shaming to like, have another guy like dominating you like that sort of mentality.
And I just think it’s its own your desires. Don’t project them on to other people. Do you know what I mean? Because what one person desires will not be the same as what, another desires. And I think that when we give each other space and we give ourselves space to just own our desires again, the sky’s the limit. So Yeah.
Nice. I love a lot of boy. You guys both just said, because I resonate with Michael and the, it was an easier to come out that way. And I think maybe it wasn’t even easier to come out that way because I was very open to everything when I like, I want to experience it all. And I think by default, because I’m so tall,
like I’m six foot three, I’m almost six, four. And I’m quite a large person. I think by default I became the top a lot of the time because people just assume that of me. And because they also bring quite a confidence energy to things. People also took that as like a dominating energy. Like he’s the dominant one and the submissive side just came out in them.
Even like I was with tops before where they’re like, well, I’m going to bother them this time. I was like, this was not the deal I signed up for today. And so, so I resonate with that. That, yes, it can definitely be that part of it. But then going into like what Matt, you were talking about Mike playing in this like area of like,
why do we have to have such stringent things? I love versatility. And I love the openness of versatility. I love to be able to explore all the things and see what energy my partner is in whatever energy am I in. Like who’s feeling what sometimes I want to be dominated. And sometimes I want other people to dominate me because I like to play in that flow of things because just being stuck in one or the other for me,
isn’t I guess maybe it comes down to like curiosity and exploration and learning is it’s like, how would I know how to be an amazing top if I’d never bought them before? And I don’t know what that feels like, you know, because I feel like, because I know how to be a good bottom and that allows me to also be a good top because then I know what they’re experiencing at least from to a certain degree and then vice versa.
So it informs my sexual exploration and it allows me to kind of explore those things differently with different people. And sometimes people like, Nope, I’ve done it. This is not for me. That’s a, and that’s great, but I’m kind of like one of those like explore everything before you just knock it down. And also even if you’ve have explored and knocked it down,
maybe if it wasn’t a good experience, don’t close the doors to things because I’ve heard people who have been like, no, it was awful experience this, that and the other. And it’s like, well, maybe your ex was like fucked up. Maybe you had a bad experience. Maybe the appendage was way too large. Like there’s so many things that could go into it that it’s like,
don’t just knock it one time because you’ve tried it one time. And like, it went bad. Like give yourself the grace and the space to be able to go, you know what? It’s been awhile. Let me explore this a little bit again. And I find that the more somebody is grounded in who they are, the more they are capable of opening themselves up to those opportunities.
And definitely see this when I’ve like with partners I’ve had and other people is that the more I, the more somebody seems very grounded in who they are like confidently grounded, not like egotistically, just like they knew who they are. And they’re happy in that space. The more open they are and willing they are to learn and to explore in these places and to grow.
And it’s the ones who are like very stringent and not open and not willing to do those things that I’m like, okay, I know I’m not going to have a good experience with you because like, if you’re only the top and like, that’s that, and like, no conversation has had, I’m like, what other area of your life, where you also shut down in,
you know, and the same with bottoming. Like if you’re only in like, that’s it and it’s like cut paste. It’s like, I was like, well, what area? What other areas of your life are you like unwilling to explore that? And I get it. It’s like, okay, well you love it. But if you found another partner who maybe was also the bottom,
would you completely lock that out? And like the potential for that experience, like you were talking about Matt, simply because you were both bottoms, even though you get along so well, and you’re like, this could be something amazing. You’re not going to even allow yourself to explore that just because you have this like concrete notion of like, oh, well,
it’s not going to work out in this regard. Yeah. So yeah. Lots of stuff that has come up for, for this and why this keeps getting perpetuated in the community because it does. And I think it’s going to keep getting perpetuated until we get to more balanced. And I think that a lot of that comes from the masculine feminine balance within regards to like politics in the heteronormative world.
It’s, you know, it is what it is. It’s we still live in a man’s world cause they’re still running most of the shit and it’s slowly changing and it’s going to take generations to get there. Just like LGBTQ rights are taking generations for us to get there. But as long as we keep doing the work, we, we will get there.
So I’m curious, how do you guys think that we, as a community can start moving away from all the bottom shaming and actually start empowering ourselves and other people. And how does that look like for you and your experience and what has been your experience around bottom shaming? Who wants to start off? Who feels a little? I will, because I want to talk about something you just shared.
And it’s my first point. Actually, my first point is focused on what feels good. And I want to speak to those people who are attaching to one polar and the other polar. And I think there’s this element. Yes. Sometimes people are more shut down and they don’t want to experiment there’s that side to it. So I want to validate what you said,
but I think there’s also the people that have experimented and they just know like anal sex is painful. There bot is not built for it. Right. And I know that there’s people out there like that if they don’t enjoy it. Right. And I think sometimes we can start to put pressure on ourselves thinking that I have to do this. Otherwise I’m not going to meet my person or I’m not going to have good sex,
but your body’s always communicating to you if anal doesn’t feel good, don’t do it. And the same with bottoming, right? I know of some guys that don’t enjoy penetration, their penis. Doesn’t like the feeling of being inside a guy’s butt. So they just don’t do it. Right. And I just, I really want people to be authentic honor,
what it is that feels good for your body and quit applying all this garbage pressure that we put on each other or that society has put on us. That if that were gay men, we have to AB hypersexual, we be, have to know our position and we have to be willing to tell everybody our position, which that’s also really vulnerable to tell someone yet I’m a bottom,
I’m a top and just exchanging it. Like, it’s the weather? Do you know what I mean? It’s a big deal. Like these are, this is our body. And I think there’s this element of anonymity and privacy that we also can start to practice as a gay community that we don’t need to be leading with that. Like, Hey, how are you?
What are you a top bottom reverse? You know? Like there was a lot more to these exchanges than just that. So I wanted to bring, bring voice to that. And I honor that because I also know people who don’t like any penetrative sex at all. Things like I’ve met people who were like, I like, I don’t ever want to have that,
whether it’s top or bottom. And, and there are those people out there, so everybody has different side to side. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. So to answer your second part of your question. So I actually haven’t really experienced bottom shaming, to be honest, I love bottoming. And, but the one, the, the one person I have experienced bottom shaming from is myself,
but I’ve never experienced it from another person. So a lot of stuff around femininity, I talked about this on multiple episodes before and how I really struggled being in the feminine energy. And I bought hardcore into hyper-masculinity and the patriarchy stuff. It was, that’s been a lot of my deconditioning to be honest, is all around feminine, slowing down, receiving all this stuff.
So the way to empower ourselves as be mindful of our own internal bottom shaming, right? Because somebody can only truly shame you if you give them consent. Right. And the consent is I’m shaming myself and you’re just stimulating my own internal judgment, right? If you’re fully 100% confident in being a bottom, there’s nothing anybody could say to you to phase you.
Right? So all, all the bottom shaming is doing is it’s just inciting your own lack of acceptance with yourself. So stop projecting and just start taking responsibility. And that’s how we heal shame. That’s, you know, Michael gave a plug to the H Y S the healing or shame course, that’s really what we’re teaching is like, just take responsibility for yourself and start to be aware of how your shame masks are being worn and how you’re showing up.
And, and that’s a big, big thing. Stop putting tops on pedestals. That’s my next bullet, right? Why are we doing that? Why are we putting heterosexual men on pedestals? Do you know what I mean? Like just own own who you are, be proud of, who you are, be proud of your sexual fantasies and your desires and all this stuff.
And I think that’s, that’s a real big one because, you know, you look at how this, this bleeds into so many other areas around, you know, white privilege and these things where it’s like, there has to be an element of us giving away our power to put somebody else on a pedestal in any of those arenas, anything that’s related to social justice,
anything of those, that nature, we are doing it to ourselves, right? We’re giving away our power. And I think that’s where we have to stop. We got to put a cork in that and stop leaking out our power. And that’s when I think will we become empowered, right? Putting a cork in the leak of our power is how we become empowered.
And I just wrote down, stop attributing, being a top to being closer, to being straight or more masculine, which I think I’ve already given voice to that already. So I don’t need to say more, but I think that’s a really big, a big part of it because, you know, if you think about it too, like being a bottom,
like it’s not, it’s not submissive, like the sure. There’s submissive bottoms, but there’s also Dom bottoms. There’s like playful bottoms. There’s, it’s just, it’s, it’s an exploration, right? And you get to bring the energy in, of whatever you want to bring in. So this, this whole notion of, of sexual confidence, I think plays a big role into this too,
because I think sometimes people default into roles because they’re not feeling confident sexually in, in a certain space. So, you know, a lot of guys who struggle with performance, anxiety, or confidence will just default into being a bottom. Right. And I think when you find somebody who you feel that you can practice and be safe with and explore tantra and,
and learn how to really meet yourself in these really deep and meaningful ways, I think the sky could be the limit, right? For some people and some people it’s like, no, like this is what I enjoy. And so I think the last thing I want to say is just keep an open mind. That’s it? To, to, to changing and not,
not attaching to certain things. And sexuality is very fluid. And as we grow and mature spiritually and psychologically, I think our sexual self is constantly changing. It’s very fluid, but we attach to it through ego and we’re like, no, this is who I am. And we stay stuck. Right. But I think sexuality is meant to be playful and exploratory.
And the more we label ourselves, the less we allow ourselves to go there. So, yeah. I love all, a lot of what you just said and being a top does not make you more straight. We’re still all having sex with men. Like it’s, it’s still still there, but there’s definitely a lot of that. I, I, I experienced a lot of that in the middle east.
I lived over in the middle east because it was like, it was like night and day, like north America, everybody’s complaining that everybody’s bottom go over there. Everybody’s on top because culturally, what their experience is, it’s not gay. If you’re at the top, like that’s the energy behind it. And it’s, it’s so wild. It’s so wild to experience those.
So, Michael, what do you have to say about That’s it so much? That’s great. I mean, I loved about bottom, not ashamed at all about, I’d love to have sex in general, all kinds of sex, lots of different people, lots of different places, lots of different things. So I’d like to explore my fetishes. I love to try new things.
And so I find my relationship with sex to be one that is very playful and exploratory. And that is what makes me sexually confident is I will, but again, honoring my own boundaries, right? So it’s, it’s very different. I have, I have my boundaries. I know what I’m willing to do it. I know what I’m not willing to do.
I know why that’s not a thing. Why do I want to do this as a, to play as a, to relate? Is it just for fun? Do I just want to come versus, do I want intimacy? Do I want connection? Am I looking to fill a need? Fill a void validation. So I’m very self-aware of the reasons why I go for what I want,
but you know, one thing I love that Matt said that I definitely want to underline is no one can shame you for anything being bottom or anything until you yourself believe that. So people can tell me, oh my gosh, Michael, you’ve fucked. Like half of the tops of the city. And I’ll say yes. And is that supposed to make me feel bad?
No, I’m, that’s fine. But like, they can throw the shame at you, but you don’t have to receive it. Right? Like someone’s like here, take the shame. And I’m just gonna be like, whoop, sorry. Nope, not me. And that, that comes from the work within, right. That comes from the work within,
because I don’t think that having a lot of sex, but for me, this is, this is really I’m talking about slut-shaming as well. For me, it’s both. I don’t think that having a lot of sex or bottoming a lot or enjoying bottoming or talking about bottoming makes a, is a reason to be ashamed. I don’t think that at all,
like that just doesn’t that doesn’t in my mind that doesn’t compute. So you could throw all the shaming kind of you on, but it’s just not gonna happen. So I think that was really good point. You made Matt. Another thing I want to talk about was just the idea of, of the importance of sex and sexuality. This is not trivial stuff.
It’s fun. It’s, it’s great. But there’s a lot here that we can work on and, and look into like my personal development. My spiritual path is in tandem with my sexual empowerment, my sexual confidence, they, to me swerved and one hand in hand. So it’s, you know, not morally superior to look down on sex as a psych sinful tawdry,
topic of sex based full thing. No, no sexual desire. Your relationship with sex are important. I would even say fundamental to your wellbeing. It’s fundamental to your spirituality. If you so choose fundamental to the, your relationship with your body, the way you develop relationships with others, there is so much power in that sexual energy. And so often,
yes, it’s fun of course, but I do want to honor it as well. Right? It makes your sex life hotter. It improves the relationships. It’s really deep. It can be very deep, personal work and it’s not easy. At least for me, it wasn’t always easy. So I want to say that this whole topic of sex is it is a part of it.
We’re, you know, we’re not just talking about it in that tawdry kind of way, although it can be. So, yeah, I think with my experience with bottom shaming, it’s actually more about sex shaming that, that I get is like, he’s such a slut. So shameless about the way he talks about sex and you know, the way he takes off his shirt and shows off his blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. I’m like, yes, yes, I am bring it, bring, bring on the shamelessness because I worked hard to, to get here and I will not apologize for enjoying the sex. I want how I want it, what I want, where I want it. And I’m not going to,
and I’m not going to not talk about it either. Right? So some people right now, it can be getting uncomfortable. I go, listen to him, talk about that. And I get that a lot too on my, on my Instagram, like, you know, you’re a professional, you shouldn’t be, you shouldn’t be doing that is what people will tell me.
I got that kind of shaming. I’m like, listen, my professionalism has nothing to do with my sexuality. And in fact, I would say it draws to me the clients that need me. And that is not something again, to be ashamed of. So yeah, that’s, I guess that’s my, my, my 2 cents on the bottom shaming slash sexual shaming in general and what we need to do.
Hmm, nice. I love that. I love what both of you guys said, because there’s so much good stuff in there. And I’m going to add onto what you were saying. Michael is I really think that how we start moving away from like these kinds of things as a community is by doing the self work. Like my personal development work is also all encompassing of all the other stuff,
which is also including the sex, like all of the sex work and all this stuff that goes into there. Not like sex work, but like, if that’s what you’re doing as well, like more power to you, like I, you know, I believe people should be in charge of their own bodies and what they want to do with them and how they want to do that full stop.
It’s yours, you got it. This was delivered to you upon birth. Now it’s yours. You do whatever you want with it. And that a lot of that comes down to just the personal development work of like, the more you get to know yourself, the more you don’t care, what other people think, or maybe not care, you take it into account,
but you, it doesn’t need to be part of your being and part of your experience and the experience I’ve had with bottom Shamie’s, I’ve never been shamed for. I mean, maybe it’s come up in passing, but like I love bombing. I love shopping as well. Like I’m a very first person and the shame that I’ve received around it has been like,
oh, but you’re really just a bottom who like has to talk because you’re so tall. And like, there’s this notion of like, everybody wants to bottom. And if you’re a true verse that it’s like, that’s a unicorn, you don’t actually exist. You always want one or the other. And it’s like, I want to have the best experience for me and the person I’m having the experience with.
That’s what I want. And however, that’s going to play out. It’s going to play out. It could be bottom or it could be tough. Like I’m going to decide that in the moment and decide what the person that I’m I’m with. And I will equally enjoy both of them because for me, it all comes down to like the connection and the eyes and the like the emotional connection to it.
And I think that a lot of people who have detached the emotional connection to sex, this is how they categorize things. This is like how they put things in their brains so that they can rationalize things that are going on because they’ve separated themselves from the actual spiritual experience of sex. And it’s just the physical now. And there’s nothing wrong with having just the physical,
but if that’s all you’re having, and it’s not leading you to the fulfilling enjoyment that you want to have, then maybe it’s time to look at that and see how it’s affecting you and why you’re limiting yourself from having also these emotional experiences in regards to it, and being able to empower yourself through self-empowerment or through self-development in order to get to that place where you’re like,
okay, well maybe I’m the top. And maybe I do want to start bottoming, or maybe I do want to try it. That is going to take trust. And that’s going to take building some sort of a relationship with somebody who you trust to take you down that path with you, you know? And it’s not like you just want to be like,
okay, well I’m going to bottom. So I’m going to go on grinder and I’m going to find somebody right now and it’s just going to happen because I, it might be a good experience. I’ve had good experiences that way, but it also could definitely very much not be a good experience, but you want to set yourself up. If you’re going to do it,
you want to set yourself up for success. And I also want to say that in general, there’s a perpetuation of shame just by like being in earshot of people who are constantly be using these kinds of slurs and constant shaming. Because even though you do the work, hearing it over and over and over and over again, especially new people in the community,
if you’re like new out, and this is your thing, and you’re hearing all these conversations with people, you’re going to start kind of believing what they’re saying, because you’re like, well, if everybody’s talking like this, then maybe I’m a, I’m a top, like I’m a top because I don’t want to be in this shamed group over here. And again,
that just tracks back to doing your own work. Like, what do you like, what do you enjoy? And building yourself up and having that core group of people and that support system to keep you steady whenever the world kind of throw shit at you. And that you’re like, ah, I don’t really believe what’s being said over here. Is there any last things you guys want to throw into this?
I want to talk about ownership. I’m just owning, owning all of it. Owning the fact that you are a sexual being last month, last month, our theme was spirituality. You are a spiritual being. You are just as much a sexual being as you are a spiritual being. It is part of you. It is a beautiful part of you and own it.
And what owning it means is exploring it, having fun with it, touch yourself, explore your body. Like literally touch herself. If you, if you enjoy porn and, you know, watch some different kinds of porn that like, Hey, maybe I like this. Maybe I don’t right. Find out. So I think just owning the fact that you are a sexual being can really help,
help with sexual empowerment in general. And even just reducing that shame because we are all sexual beings and my flavor is going to be very different than yours. And that’s okay. But that’s not the fun though. Is that the fun, when you can connect with one or several people and start to explore each other’s bodies or, or, or each other’s as a sexual being like,
does it turn you on when I touch you here? Do you like it? When I do this? Like all these different things, I think that could be so much fun. So yeah, I think owning it definitely is the first step to solve the fact that you are a sexual being. And if you’re Catholic like me or what’s classic, like me reject all that nonsense,
they told you about that. It’s, it’s a sin to have any kind of sex drive. If it’s everybody does it, like, it’s the, it’s the most basic animalistic thing. Like all the animals do it and they got no shame about it. So it’s like, why are we building up all this bullshit around it? Like, We’re all here because people had sex,
but that’s why we’re here. I want to say one thing, cause it’s hard to have a conversation. I think we’ve been said this word and the remedy to healing shame is a vulnerability. So we’ve been vulnerable today sharing our experiences. And I would encourage people in the community and people listening to start practicing vulnerability around this stuff. If you have bottom shaming,
talk about it, you know, externalize it. And that’s how we’re going to heal it within our community is if people start to see other people with, you know, being brave and coming forward and not just about bottoming, about sex, sexual shaming, right? I think this is, this is a big part of it and like stay in your own fucking lane.
That’s my, that’s my biggest tip of the day. Stay in your own lane. Why do you give a shit what other people are doing with their bodies? Right. That’s so, so important. So, and if everybody’s consenting, I should say, I shouldn’t really put the asterix there. Everybody’s consenting. Why do you give a shit where people are doing the third party?
A hundred percent? Yeah. A hundred percent. This has been magical. I’m so glad that we got to have this conversation finally, because everybody’s been asking for it for a long time. So if you’ve liked this episode and you like what we’re delivering to you, please give us the thumbs up. If you’re watching on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and also the bell,
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